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Faith and the Founders
Whether you are reading some of the posts on this website or simply listening to conversation on a college campus, it doesn't take long before you hear the "free thinkers," secular humanists or atheists begin their mantra about how "secular" and deist our Founders were in their beliefs. Or worse yet, sometimes we hear that our Founders were actually followers of the French Enlightenment Movement.
This, of course, is standard fare in too many high school and college classrooms. And when people who have been educated to believe this are confronted with the Founders actual quotes and speeches, they attack the messenger.
Let me tell you how bad it is.
One of the reasons that David Barton, see schedule of Forums that Faith & Freedom is sponsoring, has been criticized so strongly is because the secularist has been taught something that is very foreign to the truth regarding U.S. history.
They have been taught a revised history that affirms the secularist beliefs and agenda of the so-called elite among us.
Of the 55 men who wrote and signed the U.S. Constitution of 1787, all but three were orthodox members of one of the established communions: approximately 29 were Anglicans, 16 to 18 were Calvinists, 2 Methodists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 was kind of a lapsed Quaker and sometime Anglican. One was an open Deist -- Dr. Franklin, yet he attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer and contributed to most all the Christian denominations.
He also wrote in his pamphlet, "Information To Those Who Would Remove to America" (written to Europeans who were thinking of moving to America) that, "Atheism is unknown there; infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with ether an atheist or an infidel."
Yet, our Founding Fathers have been made over into racist slaveholders, the settlers of the West into genocidal land stealers and the ever-expanding present day welfare state the ultimate triumph of liberalism.
The secularists are so committed to this revisionism that when someone share the truth, they attack them. There are those ho seek to discredit David Barton because they resist the message.
I want to encourage you to plan to attend of our David Barton Forums (click here to see schedule and locations). If you have children, bring them. If you have friends with questions, bring them as well.
Please spread the word. I look forward to seeing you at these meetings.
_____________
Gary Randall
President
Faith & Freedom
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28 Comments:
Again just more misdirection - if you were living by the Christian principles revered by our founding fathers you wouldn't be running this website Gary. You'd be for gay people getting licensing their marriages, you'd be for people having religious freedom, you'd be for giving your fellow citizens the greatest latitude possible in making their own choices.
But you are into dogma, not principles and our founding fathers, even the Christians were NOT into clubbing others over the head with dogma.
Dear Gary, If I lived on the Left Coast I would surely attend, and definitely bring the kids. Thanks for all you do.
Oshtur Vishanti means "White Witch of Babylon" Guess what worldview Oshtar has?
Gary,
The reason that
"our Founding Fathers have been made over into racist slaveholders, the settlers of the West into genocidal land stealers"
IS BECAUSE THEY WERE!!!! You are the revisionist - almost every one of these individuals owned slaves. Why can't you be honest??? What is wrong with integrity??? Are your politics more important than Christ - you too have sold your soul for a bowl of pottage.
I challenge you since you are so good with numbers to walk through each of the so called founding fathers and list out who did and who did NOT own slaves. The case will be closed when you are done and your statement will be shown to be false. Willing to engage in honesty or will this value be too scarey??
I also challenge you to put up on your site a list of those you consider the "founding fathers". I submit most were rich, white propertied elistists and many looked down on the common man and totally despised the black man.
The second point I have made and to which you have never responded is SO WHAT ?????
Their religion is irrelevant to the citizens of our great country of the USA today.
Last - why do you call some Calvinists??? Did not Paul teach you that there are none that should call themselves by any other name then Christ - yet you perpetuate this deception further. I submit it is because you don't really care of J-C values - you care about your political domination (the profit making motive I remain uncertain about - and hope to God that it is not a driving force in your heart).
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Human
Who cares how many times the did or didn't go to church? or owned slaves? or had green eyes?
None of them believed in electricity, quantum physics, plate-techtonics, etc. That doesn't mean that these new, enlightened ideas don't super seed their views or ideas of 200+ years ago.
Try a little enlightenment instead of hiding your head in the Bible. Here's a start, God doesn't create rainbows, they are just a little bit of physics.
Of course as you learn a little more, you'll give up believing in the folk tales/lies told to you when you were a little kid and realize that God doesn't exist.
It is quite evident your school did not teach the true history of the United States or you were not present at the time. Our great Nation was founded on what we call today “Judeo–Christian Values”. It not Dogma, it is Truth. However, you do not want to hear the truth, you want your voice to droned out the truth and be heard above the majority of the people who want Judeo-Christian values such as, ‘Do No Kill,’ ‘Do Not Steal,’ ‘Do Not Lie,’ and ‘Do Not Covet,’ to be the foundation of our Government and Laws. You would say ‘these laws are part of our laws;’ however, when the Bible was removed from our schools, we experienced Killing in schools, and when we removed the 10 Commandments from public places, we are experiencing laws that legalize the depravity of Special Interests Groups to have their way, corrupting our culture by allowing Marriage to become Diluted and Polluted. That’s the Truth.
Study and Read William Penn’s writings and you will find; ‘Government, like clocks, go from the motion men give them; and as governments are made and moved by men, so are they ruined by men. Government must depend upon men, rather than men depending on government. Let men be good, and the government cannot be bad; if government becomes ill, they will cure it. But, if men be bad, then government can never be good. I know some will say, let us have good laws and no matter for the men that execute them: but let them consider, that though good laws do well, but good men do better. Good government, then, depends upon good men legislating good laws to which the people are a party, and, even more, upon a succession of righteous judges who shall interpret them. The result is Great Government is attained.’ Government Rule: When the Righteous Rule, the People Rejoice; when the Wicked Rule, the People Groan. Proverbs 29:2 (NIV). The truth is God’s Laws are to be integrated into our laws. William Penn considered government the instrumentality which translates religion into the social organization: "Government seems to me a part of religion itself," said he in 1682, "a thing sacred in its institution and -end." It is not strange, then, that Penn's Quaker conception of religion must be studied in order to appreciate Penn's Quaker institution of government in America. Religion was to penetrate government, and legislation was to comply with the requirements of truth as discovered by those who seek it.
I will not thump you on the head with a club, I only ask that you study the history to which you speak. I will however, Pray for you to receive a new and in lighted mind, one that does not try to throughout God’s laws and replace them with the immorality of today’s’ secular views. If you read this far without turning away, I solute You and pray you will go on from here and learn the difference between a “Democracy” and a “Republic”, because when you pledge allegiance to the Flag of this Nation, You Pledge allegiance to the Flag and to the “Republic” for which it stands.
Moral Conscious: The moral fiber of this country has been ripped from its heart. Restricting and removing Gods’ teachings from the sole of these United States will witness the destruction of this once great Nation!
Anon 3:49
As a Bible believing Christian, I find your statement to be shallow and arrogant as well as full of spin. You are obviously simply parroting people who are making a profit off you, off the Word of God and off the great nation of America.
BTW - do you consider holding another man in bondage a Judeo-Christian value????? Do you??
The men who founded this country were primarily if not all racist, slave owners. Slavery was institutionalized in the original constitution - so much for enlightenment, etc.
BTW - I don't pledge allegiance to anything/one but Jesus Christ and Him crucified and ressurected - anthing else is idolatrous. I will pray for some enlightenment for you to grasp this basic Judeo-Christian value.
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Human
Human, what about Corinthians 6:9 that says "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."?
Some of you need to find another country to live in. Maybe you have not traveled, but this is still the greatest country. You can't change your history even if the some books or professors have. Our country is great because of our founding fathers decisions. We are ruining it with all of our arrogance and enlightened thought. Your ways and thoughts have not been proven. We have spent over 200 years living by the Constitution. It has worked very well. If you don't like things as are instead of trying to change things for all of us that do, find another country that you agree with and move there.
Human and Vishanti are the same person. Human is faking being a Christian. He just keeps repeating himself and chanting Christian jargon he picked up. But I'm sure you can tell.
Mr. Randall, as has been pointed-out is a shameless revisionist himself. He would rather selectively quote the Founders to support his world view.
Take the Franklin quote, he seems to forget that Franklin while in Paris often chose the company of prostitutes. What secularist offers us this scandalous view of history. That would be Franklin himself in his autobiography.
There is no doubt that the founders were Christians. But the fact is that they built a society that embraces all faiths while endorsing none.
Theocrats want to end this tradition, and replace it with an authoritarian state.
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Oshtur Vishanti means "White Witch of Babylon"
Human and Vishanti are the same person.
Does anyone know who this follower of the "Church of the Big Lie" is? I mean first the lying about human and me being the same person, and now they just make things up! If they even bothered to read the blog they would have known that my name comes from a comic book for gosh's sake. ;)
It is quite evident your school did not teach the true history of the United States or you were not present at the time.
Actually I was present and got 'A's, thanks for asking ;)
Our great Nation was founded on what we call today “Judeo–Christian Values”.
I agree.
It not Dogma, it is Truth.
I agree, values are not dogma.
… the majority of the people who want Judeo-Christian values such as, ‘Do No Kill,’ ‘Do Not Steal,’ ‘Do Not Lie,’ and ‘Do Not Covet,’
See those aren't 'values' those are dogmatic rules. We don't kill because of the Christian values of compassion, love, and humility. It would be silly to think that the reason people 'don't kill' is just because they were told not to - dogmatic rule following was what Jesus talked against over and over again. You do things for reasons, not because they are dogmatic rules.
Special Interests Groups to have their way, corrupting our culture by allowing Marriage to become Diluted and Polluted. That’s the Truth.
You mean by allowing divorce against Jesus's will that effects 100% of civilly married couples like most protestant denominations?
Letting 2% more married people to license the civil contract will hardly 'dilute or pollute'. The truth is that doesn't even make sense.
Corinthians 6:9 that says "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."?
Well a poorly translated line from a letter by Paul to the Corinthians who were using the accepted Roman culture 'loopholes' to commit adultery and engaging in idolatrous behaviors in the other mystery religion temple. And of course it didn't say 'homosexual offenders' it said 'malakos', literally 'soft', which at the time meant masturbation just as it meant for 14 centuries until that interpretation became to inconvenient.
So yes men engaging in homosexual behavior as a way to commit 'ok' adultery is wrong but its not a blanket condemnation of homosexuality - doesn't even mention women at all.
Again, the Christian values are fine - we need more people into compassion, humility, love and the like. What we don't need are frothing at the mouth zealots running around snatching shrimp from people's mouths or peaking into other people's keyholes - wouldn't want anyone having sex while their wife was menstrating would they?
The biblical 'don'ts' that are important derive from the bibliical 'dos'. Thinking you are righteous by avoiding the don'ts is what the Pharisees taught and Jesus made it very clear they were wrong wrong wrong - every Christian knows this basic fact.
It has worked very well. If you don't like things as are instead of trying to change things for all of us that do, find another country that you agree with and move there.
I'm not sure what countries would Gary would agree with - maybe some of the central African ones?
Admittedly the lies by FNF supporters are shameless indeed - but this reflects choosing to walk the wide way rather than the narrow way...common for religionists.
OT - I would spend very little time with the sick ones - there are a few including Larry and Mimi and sometimes Mick (who identify themselves) with whom your efforts would be worthwhile.
Having been a disciple of Jesus for 30 years and studying "Chrisitanity" in its various forms through the ages, I will offer a warning to you and those entirely outside of any "form" of Chrisitanity.
People get swept up by their cultural religion (Christianity n the US) but do not necessarily become genuinely saved and definitely not genuine disciples of Christ. These people, when zealous, can become exceedingly dangerous. This is seen in the certain portions of Evangelical leadership of the US and certain denominations such as the Southern Baptist whore. Their focus is on this world (contrary to Christ) - and on oppressing the flesh (vs. building the spirit). They are shameless, their god is political domination and they will routinely lie and dissumulate to get it (as you notice that Gary does on FNF). They have learned this by the community they hang out with - the Republican party and the Right wing (whose evil knows no bounds). As Paul said, bad company corrupts good morals - this is true and demonstrable in this case. Admittedly, I have been surprised just to see how far they go. And I am saddened when I see young, possibly even saved humans such as Mimi get sucked into their evil and turn off their minds and become parrots.
I offer you a warning - if you do not gather your countrymen and fight back - you will be in for a heap of trouble. Read about Calvin's Geneva to see what happens when they take control - living human beings burned at the stake, heads rolling and all manner of evil torture and "morality police".
This brings up where these people should go since they hate the great, beautiful and sort still free nation of America. I recommend Saudi Arabia - here they have have all the religious oppression they want. Communist China would suit them well with their thought police, etc.
Sincerely,
In Christ who has set us free for freedom's sake,
Human
I find it very interesting that we self-proclaimed Christians who write in and express our opinions, find ourselves in need of being highly critical of what others think, no matter what side we have chosen. It appears to be very easy to be here in contemporary time and look back over 200+ years and criticize our 'founding fathers' for their actions, change the meaning of their intent and arrogantly believe that we 'know' what they were thinking and why they did what they did.
Yes, our fore-fathers where white and many of them were rich. But these same white men and their spouses, the greater majority who were Christian, invested who they were and what they had (and many lost everything including their lives) and decided that what they believed in was important enough to fight and die for and define those beliefs in a series of documents, rights and accountabilities. Their actions were based on their Christian values and beliefs. Stating otherwise, is just not being truthful. Refer to "the Patriots Handbook" by George Grant for additional factual references, including our first 14 presidents, before George Washington inaugurated April 30, 1789, they who served under the Continental Congress and then the Confederation Congress prior to what we know now as our Constitution.
We may feel justified in our criticism, but kindly name me one, just one, other country in the world that is what America is and what America has, in libertys, freedoms and rights, to be exactly what and who we choose to be or not be and with the same freedoms as are being expressed on this website. Also, yes we had slaves but no more. It was the white Americans that eliminated slavery and we have done more to promote people's rights and freedoms around the world than all other countries combined. Of course, supporting other's freedom and rights and promoting Democracy has been labeled, in some corners, as imperialism and pushing our belief systems. You can't have it both ways, condemnation of who we are and at the same time condemning our not doing enough in the world.
We are in a constant state of 'potential' change, whether technological or otherwise. As a 40+ year technological change agent, I can testify that all change is not necessarily good, nor is it necessary, nor at the right time. We as a society, using our God-given capabilities have shown that we can, when objective and willing, can arrive at reasonable conclusions and directions.
However, we have become a nation of people highly influenced by small groups of special interests that believe that they can move us in their own selfish personal or ideological direction, and are willing to label any dessenters with negative names. Socialism and total Secularism are a few. This is intended to create fear and prevent knowledgeable dialogue. Such terms as racist, homophobe, or Christian Right are just a few. We have created terms as Progressive so that others, who might disagree, will be labeled, non-Progressive. Additionally we have created terms like anti-Christian so that those who speak against us, must not be Christian.
We are polarizing the majority of our people, that group that in the past we labeled the Silent Majority.
We are better than that, but we are losing the courage to be American, to stand for what our founding fathers believed and why they risked everything to create America, not to be like Europe or other countries, but to be American, the most wonderful, charitable, freedom-loving and energetic people on our beautiful earth.
Kindly always remember, "We have the right to our opinion, but we do not have the rights to distort the facts".
Ron Borowski
Anon 11:31
This is pious pape.
The founding fathers so called had a primary concern - protecting their butts and protecting their property. That is reality. You are reading revisionist history.
ALSO - attending a church and being pious (seemingly) DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN - being born of the Spirit does. I would strongly suggest that many of these men were simply pious religionists at best.
I have asked Gary to produce a list of who these founding fathers were - we then can begin to dissect them one by one.
You are welcome to do so if you wish.
Sincerely,
In Christ,
Human
From Wikipedia:
"The Book of the Vishanti was written by unknown authors, possibly the Vishanti themselves, but more likely dictated by the Vishanti to human students of the white magical arts.
The first known owner was the Atlantean sorcerer Varnae around 18500 B.C. [1] After his death Varnae was turned into a vampire by a spell from the book of the Darkhold, making him the first vampire on Marvel Earth."
The next known owner was the Babylonian god Marduk, who may or may not be the same as Daimon Hellstrom's father Marduk Kurios. [2] Marduk set a griffin to guard the Book. The sorcerer known as the Ancient One travelled back in time to circa 4000 B.C. [3] and defeated the griffin and returned to the 20th century A.D.
Wow! And now we find someone who didn't collect comics as a kid more obsessed with a pen name than the collector.
Priorities people - its a comic book!
From a 50+ man???????????????
[b]From a 50+ man???????????????[/b]
Why not? I've been using the names of the 3 Vishanti for computer handles since the mid 70's playing Moria, Pheonix 3 and the like on the ARPnet and PLATO networks at my Army assignments (the precursors to the modern internet). Its tradition!
(screens had a refresh of once every 3 seconds - miriacles of modern technology ;)
Have you discovered the difference between a “Democracy” and a “Republic” yet?
I'm Still Praying...
...using Christ to mock people?
Human that makes no sense.
Have you discovered the difference between a “Democracy” and a “Republic” yet?
In a democracy we have the 'tyranny of the majority' one thing our founding fathers deliberately wanted to prevent. In a 'republic' (in this case a constitutionally governed democratic republic'), we have a nation where there are qualities that are not open to majority rule, the individual citizens have them regardless of the will of the majority, and the representatives to the government are bound by these constitutional limitations.
The F&FN advocates a tyrannical majority tromping on the rights of other citizens but we've know this for a very long time.
oshtur/human FFN advocates "tyrannical majority tromping on the rights of other citizens"?
Where do you come up with this stuff? That is the kind of thing that people who are bitter about not making it in life say (aka malcontents).
Seems to me if your ways of thinking are so right, you'd be little less miserable and a little more joyful.
Anon 6:19
A reading of Jn 8 may be helpful.
Where do you come up with this stuff?
Hmmm from F&FN advocating special rights for some married citizens, for advocating removing other people's right to choose, for saying insuring schools teach scientific facts is a bad thing, for fighting against equal rights. I don't have to look far - intolerance is the cornerstone of F&FN
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