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Polygamists and Gay Marriage Link
A little more than a year ago, people who should have know better, were scoffing publicly at the notion that there was any linkage between a new and energized effort to legalize polygamy and the gay rights effort to legalize gay marriage.
Now, we are being told that indeed, the polygamists are getting traction and making progress.
The Washington Post in reporting that the effort to “mainstream” polygamy is taking on a whole new look with it’s own new vernacular of words like, “sister-wives,” “plural marriages” and “plural wife.” The Post is also reporting that they are, “consciously taking tactics from the gay-rights movement” as they reframe their struggle, choosing in interviews to de-emphasize their religious beliefs and focus on their desire to live “in freedom.”
The authorities in Utah have said, “The thinking is this: this is a big group of people. They are not going away. You can’t incarcerate them all. You can’t drive them out of the state. So they are here. What do we do about it?”
Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University, has written op-eds for USA Today calling for the legalization if bigamy – and same-sex marriage.
I strongly recommend that you read the article. Click here for “Polygamists Fight to be Seen as Part of Mainstream.”
_______________
Gary Randall
President
Faith & Freedom
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36 Comments:
It is interesting that "warnings" about various impacts that by accepting "gay" marriage status as well as even considering any special status of the gay proclivity will have an adverse effect on society. The constant projection by gays and those who have NOT done any accurate research on the subject that gay acceptance will not affect heterosexual marriage is such a, and here goes that current vernacular, blatent lie!
The thing is, because this element is persistant and gaining clout, it does fit the Lord's prediction about how the world will be just before Jesus' return for his church and the following wrath of God on the unbelieving world.
This is a warning to all who are just cruising along in life and not seeking the Lord in HIS truth - not our own thinking.
The warnings are not hidden and IF a person truly wants to be saved from the coming wrath, they need to, in all humility, seek God. Sadly, I realize that the Bible predicts MOST will not seek God!
So where is your research showing that allowing same-sex civil marraige will have an adverse affect on heterosexual marriage? Seems to me you're just spouting Christianist talking points without any effort to back them up.
-JC
to 11:05 Anon:
Thank you for carefully listing all of the affects on heterosexual marriage by same-sex marriage (i.e. none).
Doom and Gloom, Doom and Gloom, the world is ending tomorrow, blah, blah, blah.
It's just more religious rhetoric that is no more believable than the moon is made of cheese.
We all saw this coming.
I am no more shocked that polygamists see the increasing acceptance of their gay neighbors' marriages as a potential "in" for legalizing polygamy, than I am to see my Christian neighbors believe that allowing same-sex marriage will lead to inter-species marriages or the downfall of society.
The truth is, the arguments for and against polygamy are wholly different from the arguments full and against same-sex marriage. As is always the case, each will be considered on its own merits.
The day we allowed women to vote, we did not have to consider allowing them to vote twice. Nor did we have to start allowing children to vote. The day we allowed blacks to buy land, we did not have to consider allowing them to buy the oceans. Nor did we have to allow animals to buy land. So-called "slippery slopes" don't come true and are instead a scare tactic.
I know that same-sex marriages will be the law of the land as more people seek the truth about who their gay and lesbian neighbors are, but I'm also 99.99 percent certain that polygamy will never again be legal in this country.
You can choose to be blinded by the likes of Gary Randall and others who wish to change the subject AWAY from same-sex marriage in order to argue AGAINST it, or you can seriously attempt to explore the topic yourself FROM BOTH SIDES by meeting your gay neighbors and their children, talking to them, and disovering that what we want out of life is exactly the same things you want out of life.
Will you take the challenge?
I know that same-sex marriages will be the law of the land as more people seek the truth about who their gay and lesbian neighbors are
Towards that Gallup polling did an interesting analysis of opinions towards gays and marriage equality. They found that no matter the times or what, people don't seem to change their attitudes about gays. They've been polling on the subject for 30 years and the same approval figures follow the age group that gave them through time.
This does mean that the change will be inevitable since their recent polls show that the majority of men under 30 and women under 40 support marriage equality. Of course by the time they recognize it, most of the world will already have it.
"Freest nation on earth". Maybe it was at one time but not today.
Gosh - folks are so uninformed. Check out what's happened in Holland! Heterosexual marriage is definitely on the decline; people "live" together now, rather than marry. Children are at risk, no assurance of a mother and a father. Canada has polygamous marriage (to answer the comment made above that she/he was SURE polygamy would never be made legal). The Truth is, polgamy is "legal" adultery, and homosexuality is an abomination. If the majority someday approve all this immorality, then I'd like to have the best of both worlds: Give me 4 husbands, please. One to do the laundry; one to clean the house; one to do the cooking; and one to provide me with sex. All of them to of course work and support me! Fair is fair! Let's not just make women the chattels! On the other hand, it might be best if everyone got informed instead of constantly accusing Christians of bigotry. Homosexuals make up 2% of our society, yet 40% of pedophiles are HOMOSEXUALS! And how about NAMBLA??? Lovely organization, wanting to corrupt our young boys! Wake up!! Go read the Bible you turkeys! So sorry I have to be "Anonymous."
So many lies and distortions to correct... But then you knew that.
More to the point Anonymous has once again confused the civil contract called marriage with the natural state of marriage. In a socialist country with nationalized healthcare and support for each individual citizens, many find they don't need a civil contract until they have children, that's all. This happens in all socialized nations where the civil contract conveys no real benefits to childless married couples.
A Canadian report didn't suggest that the nation should support polygyny but that it should be made non-criminal so that abused wives would be able to come forward about it without fear that their husband would be put in jail for it. The reasoning being that threat of criminal prosecution was not a deterrent to those who are going to practice it. Worlds away from any suggestion that they license civil contracts for it.
And of course few pedophiles have an adult sexual orientation, but when they do it is most often heterosexual. Out gay people are rarely pedophiles. And FYI NAMBLA had just over 2,000 members at its peak according to a government investigation. Now do a Google for 'Lolita sex' (the code word for heterosexual pedophiles) and see the over 2.5 MILLION hits for same.
Once again we see how Anonymous lies and twists things to fit their hateful agenda.
And, of course, I have read the bible - it says nothing about homosexuality other than in specific cases involving rape, idolatry and adultery. It does say that all the current law flows from 2 commandments - love god, and love your neighbor as god loves you. Not seeing any love in your lies.
And finally you don't have to be 'anonymous' if you don't want. Go to google, get an account, sign up with blogger, and you have a name that you can use to differentiate your hateful messages from other people's hateful messages. Its really very simple.
Gary, you are right. We could see it coming down the pipe. It is going to continue to go that way, furthur and furthur spiraling downward into more and more perverseness, and corruption and death of innocents, until we get people who are willing to stand up and say that this perverseness is not acceptable because we are a Christian nation. All other reasons are doomed to fail in light of the "fairness" argument. The fact is, if those perverts would like to live in an atheist country where such behavior is allowed, please feel free. But this country is a Christian country founded upon Christian principles, and unless we admit that and stand up for it, our country is destined to be destroyed from within.
What should we do against polygamists? Fine them. If they don't pay, simply put a lien on their holdings. Since their god is not God, their holdings are more important to them than their perverted desires. If not, simply reallocate their holdings to good law-abiding citizens.
Wait a minute. I thought this site was based on Biblical values. Polygamy is ALL through the Bible. I mean, I can understand interpreting the Bible to be against gay marriage (though it NEVER says that) because at least you don't have anyone participating in that in the Bible, but it's chock full of polygamists, so doesn't FFN have to be in support of that?
This is the wrong place to look for consistency.
But more importantly, when can I marry my camel?
I guess since Gary sees a link between gay marriage and polygamy, it is then okay to see a link between Faith and Freedom, Sound the Alarm, Focus on the Family, and the Mega Churches that support them, and the Waco Branch Dividians.
Andrew,
Don't forget that those links lead right on back to the John Birch Society and the KKK.
Anon, got a source for any of those "facts" you throw about? Other than the deep recesses of your rear end, that is.
-JC
osh, you may have read the Bible; BUT you only have read it as the "natural man" - NOT under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - BIG DIFFERENCE in grasping it's meanings. How dare I say you have read the Bible without the Holy Spirit's guidance, you ask? Because unless you have TRULY accepted Jesus of Nazareth, born of a virgin, and all the other difinitive aspects that are given in the Bible, that define the correct "Jesus" to believe in, I am sorry, but you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit guiding you into truth.
You have stated before you believe "Jesus" to have been a "wise man". Yet, you do not grasp that IF he were as "wise" as you state, you are not dealing with the claims he made about himself - that he and God the Father are ONE. He is not just a good "wise" man. That is what the Pharisees could not accept and why Jesus had such a time with them.
You are right in saying that "current law flows from 2 commandments" (correct quotation: from Matthew 22:37-40, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind'. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.")
To "love the Lord your God" means also to include what he said about Jesus, His Son.
Also, to "love your neighbor AS yourself" means first you must know how to love yourself in order to love others! This is not as simple as it sounds!
As far as your saying the Bible has nothing to say about homosexuality except in "specific cases involving rape, idolatry and adultery" is showing that you do not have the Holy Spirit guiding you on this issue. Jesus' comments stood when he repeatedly said what was said in Genesis regarding "male and female" - the two sexes he created - that for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one. Why does Jesus have to say more on this issue? It is clear and therefore needs no more clarification.
Your interpertation that any reference in the Bible on homosexuality is only regarding "rape, idolatry, or adultery". This is in error; but you cannot see this because, as I said before, you do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
JC, "sources" regarding "those 'facts'" have been given before and you refuse to acknowledge their truth or even existance! You find fault with them and, like osh, you do no have the guidance of the Holy Spirit to be able to recognize the truth. I am sorry, but these are the facts. (I can hear you gnashing your teeth at this)
Let me get this straight: Only if you have ALREADY accepted the holy spirit into your heart can you understand the meaning of the Bible? That seems ridiculous.
What text then are non-believers supposed to read/do in order to determine whether they believe in the holy spirit?
John 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matthew 11:28 Come to me all you who are heavily burdened and I will give you rest.
Acts 16:31 Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Add to that Acts 1: 4, 5 & 8 "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses..."
You can only understanding the arguments of those who have been brain-washed if you have been brain-washed yourself.
Science, logic and reason, on the other hand are open to all - no brain washing required.
No anonymous you have not provided sources for your 'facts'. I guess that commandment about not bearing false witness get's chucked as soon as politically convenient. If it makes you happy to think I am ganshing my teeth at your serial idiocy, you do that. The fact is I'm laughing my ass off.
-JC
Yes, 11:17. There are many scientists who have looked at all of the facts and have come to the conclusion that the Bible is true. Surprised by Faith is an excellent book written by one of these scientists, Dr. Don Bierle. It is a great read.
How can anyone not see the basic point here ,
I wish a liberal would clarify the psoition ..
How can you say gay marriage is a Constitutional Right and a Polygamist Marriage is not ?
Also , how can you say stopping gay marriage is illegal discrimination and stopping polygamist marriage is not .
The end of the day , the facts will support the views the people have that brought them to the debate . But I would like to see these points explained somehow . Without name calling , just providing a little understanding .. It has long been the conservative viewpoint hat once you start making exceptions , such as in the case of marriage , that it will lead to other .
In 50 years there will be a web page and JC will be telling someone that the Promise Makers is a bigoted organization because they don't let threesomes join .
But more importantly, when can I marry my camel?
You already can, nuns all marry the same dead guy, I've seen someone married to 'the spirit of the world', you can literally marry anyone or anything you want.
If you mean when can I license a civil contract from the state in support of my marriage you can't because camels are not recognized contractable beings regardless of anything else.
Again shows the level of pure animus in the Christianist 'body of Christ' that Anonymous represents. People are allowed to marry men and women, but because the someone doing it isn't of the gender that Anonymous wants them to be suddenly marrying men and women is comparable to marrying an non-sentient being of another species.
Is it any wonder people think you are hateful hypocrites?
As to the silliness:
"As far as your saying the Bible has nothing to say about homosexuality except in "specific cases involving rape, idolatry and adultery" is showing that you do not have the Holy Spirit guiding you on this issue"
Considering people far more Christ-like in thought word and deed than you think these exact same things means that it is more likely you are the one lacking the Holy Spirit.
Jesus did make it clear - you do NOT understand the full meaning of the Law, no one does. Saying a harsh word to your brother is the same as killing him, lending money expecting something in return is a violation of it.
His statement about male and female handed down is not exclusive of anything else - if it were then all voluntarily celibate priests and nuns are in violation of Jesus's word (remember the ability to be celibate is a gift from God and only those who are given it need follow it)
It is you that can't seem to see that two people loving each other, building a life together is a good thing, regardless of the gender combination. That's what's nice about the moral teachings of Jesus - they actually work! Things that are truly sinful don't make your lives better, they do hurt the person. But being gay does neither of those things in and of itself. Gay married couples are happier, healthier, are better people for themselves, their families, and society JUST LIKE opposite gender married couples.
So when are you going to hand yourself over to the Holy Spirit and forgo your hateful judgemental ways? Again, read the Bible - tell me a verse that castigates a same gender married couple? Please - one single verse (of course its a trick question - I know there isn't one).
How can you say you oppose gay marriage because it's supposedly not Biblical and then also oppose polygamy - which is EXTREMELY Biblical?
Science, logic and reason:
At a press conference at the Maryland chapter of the National Association of Social Workers, representatives of the professional groups stressed there is extensive, consistent scientific evidence showing that children raised by lesbian and gay couples develop as well as children raised by heterosexual couples.
"The evidence is clear: No matter how you measure it, children raised by same-sex couples are no different from their peers raised by opposite-sex couples. In areas such as social development, psychological functioning, cognitive ability, and adjustment, there is no difference when comparing these kids," said Dr. Paul Clavelle, President of the Maryland Psychological Association.
Clavelle was joined by Dr. Ruth Fassinger, a psychology professor at the University of Maryland, who outlined several decades of social science research showing that same-sex parents are just as capable of being good parents as are straight couples and that their children are just as likely to be well adjusted.
Fassinger also said that there is absolutely no scientific basis for distinguishing between same-sex and heterosexual couples regarding parental and civil marriage rights.
Dr. Daphne McClellan, Executive Director of the Maryland Chapter of the National Association of Social Workers, noted, "Because of the extensive and consistent research on same-sex parenting, many of Maryland's prominent child health and welfare organizations, including the National Association of Social Workers, the Maryland Psychological Association, the Maryland Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Psychiatric Association, have asked the Court of Appeals to find that it is unconstitutional for the state to continue to deny same-sex couples marriage protections for their families."
Susan Leviton, founder of the Maryland child welfare group Advocates for Children and Youth and a longtime child advocate, pointed out the many harms faced by children of same-sex couples when their parents' relationships are not recognized.
"This ban on marriage for same-sex couples is especially hurtful to the many children who are being raised by same-sex couples," said Leviton. "Denying children a legal relationship with both of their parents, and parents a legal relationship with one another, results in children being denied health insurance and inheritance rights, and can result in children being separated from their surviving parent if the biological parent dies."
I don't think a scientist in Life Sciences especially faith studies is in a field to claim the Bible is true. Try a geologist, anthropologist, archeologist, etc.
Or go talk to a physicist about light and how the universe is more than 6000 years old.
Then when you are ready, read Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion to see all of the arguments for God throughly debunked.
RE: How can you say gay marriage is a Constitutional Right and a Polygamist Marriage is not ?
Here's how: One of our nation's most cherished principles is that of equality. That does not only mean that laws must not exclude people; it also means that all of us must be "similarly situated" under the law.
Marriage laws do not exclude anyone. A gay man is free to marry any woman, as many people have noted.
However, gay people are not similarly situated under the marriage laws as written. One of the fundamental components of marriage is that of sexual attraction / love. For whatever reason, it is clear that there is a constant minority of people for whom opposite-sex attraction and love is not an option. For those people, marriage AND love is unattainable. Gays must chose either or, but they cannot have both. But straights can choose marriage AND love together.
That is discrmination.
Think of it this way. Let's say Christian belief dictates that they cannot shop on Sundays (I'm making this up). A law that stated "all sales can occur only on Sundays" would apply to us equally. Afterall, I could say that the stores are not closed to Christians; they are free to shop any day of the week! But only Christians would be denied access to the sales unless they compromised their chosen religious beliefs. Everyone else would be able to take advantage of the sales without compromising anything so important. Christians would not be similarly situated under the law. That would be discrimination.
Now, let's talk about polygamists. If a polygamist can fall in love with two or more people, he can certainly fall in love with one. It's impossible to not fall in love with someone until you have already fallen in love with someone else (or many someone elses). Therefore, polygamists cannot claim to be excluded from marriage laws nor can they claim they are not similarly situated under the law. That is not discrimination.
With same-sex marriage, all people would be similarly situated under the law. Gays will finally have what straights take for granted every day. But there is currently NO group of people who have any rights akin to polyamorous marriage that is currently denied to polygamists.
babcock_tony@yahoo.com
"How can you say you oppose gay marriage because it's supposedly not Biblical and then also oppose polygamy - which is EXTREMELY Biblical? "
That is nonsense. While polygamy was a part of some ancient cultures that were recorded in the Bible--it was not approved by God and therefore NOT biblical.
"Other than the deep recesses of your rear end, that is."
JC this your second reference to the rectum (although this time you cleaned up your language).
Interesting that wording like that would never cross my mind--but is an integral part of yours.
"That is nonsense. While polygamy was a part of some ancient cultures that were recorded in the Bible--it was not approved by God and therefore NOT biblical. "
It was practiced by those whom God approved of and God never told them NOT to do it - and in several cases God seems to do everything to encourage it (see: Jacob).
"JC this your second reference to the rectum (although this time you cleaned up your language).
Interesting that wording like that would never cross my mind--but is an integral part of yours. "
Ass does not equate rectum. Right, such horrible words never cross your mind, what a crock.
-JC
God always sets the standards. We do not always live up to them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try. God's standard is "a man should leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one."
God's standard is to not even come close to adultery.
God's standard is to love one another.
God's standard is that nations' dispense justice.
God's standard is that the churches' care for the spiritually and physically hungry, not the nation.
By the way, an excellent book about how the US is a Christian nation is "The United States: A Christian Nation" by Supreme Court Justice David J. Brewer.
"God's standard is to not even come close to adultery."
And yet FFN and the Religous Right spend all their time and energy fighting gay marriage only.
"God's standard is to love one another."
And yet we're slaughtering Iraqi's every day.
"God's standard is that nations' dispense justice."
What? It's God who dispenses justice - that's the standard!
"God's standard is that the churches' care for the spiritually and physically hungry, not the nation."
Talk about just making up whatever you want to out of scripture.
Please stop trying just make up whatever you want to as God's standards - it's misleading to others and probably pretty offensive to God.
"Because of the Lord's eternal love for Israel, he has made you king, to maintain justice and righteousness." I Kings 10:9
"And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess, appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people of Trans-Euphrates--all who know the laws of your God..." Ezra 8:1
You are right, God does dispense the justice. And He instructs nations to dispense His justice.
If you have any other specific questions, please ask.
It's all based on already following God's laws, which our current government doesn't even come close to doing. We're not a Christian nation - we're a nation with some Christians in it. We don't operate under Christian values and those in the government who are Christian put the Bible in the backseat behind their political party agendas.
Until our government is changed, and I agree they are working on it, but until it is changed, we are still a Christian nation. Even a 4 way stop sign is a tribute to our nations laws that all are created equal in value in the eyes of God. We all have to take turns no matter who we are (unless we apply for official escort as in a funeral or parade). We need to educate people about it so we can reverse the laws that are trying to change it, or we will lose our freedom. We are already losing our freedom....teachers cannot speak about their faith or even have their own personal Bible on their desk at school, because of the tyrants.
We are already losing our freedom....teachers cannot speak about their faith or even have their own personal Bible on their desk at school, because of the tyrants.
Always so humorous that the Christianists try and present government settings as their entire life - that because they can't proselytize in a civic forum to a captive audience THEY are being persecuted and their life is oppressed.
Ignore the mega-churches, ignore the television shows, ignore the lively public debate everywhere but in government settings - this poor majority is being oppressed because it isn't being allowed to oppress others.
Boo hoo hoo. :)
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