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Now, We Vote
I remember when everyone, with a few exceptions, actually voted on Election Day. Now, with the expansion of vote-by-mail, many have already voted, but not all.
While many things have changed, the most important aspect of voting has not. We still do it.
Daniel Webster, while speaking to a woman’s club in Richmond, Virginia on October 5, 1840 said, “Impress upon children the truth that the exercise of the elective franchise is a social duty of as solemn a nature as a man can be called to perform; that a man may not innocently trifle with his vote; that every elector is a trustee as well for others as himself and that every measure he supports has an important bearing on the intensity of others as well as their own.” (The Works of Daniel Webster).
Two billion dollars has been spent during this election cycle to convince you to vote for or against a person or an issue, because it’s in your best interest.
Equally as important is the effect our vote has on other people.
And sometimes things are not as they seem. Sometimes voters are fooled, both by the working of certain measures and by the words of certain candidates.
Perhaps, the most important action all Americans can take at this time is to pray
During a debate and just before a vote, Supreme Court Justice, William Patterson, reminded his fellow justices of Proverbs 29:2, “When the righteous rule, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan.”
Every election is critical to what our country and our communities will become. This election is no exception.
I am personally going to spend time today in prayer for our country, our leaders, regardless of which political party, and for this election that God’s will may be done.
Please join me and millions of others as we ask God to bless America with His approval and His will.
________________
Gary Randall
President
Faith & Freedom
**Election results will be posted on Faith & Freedom website tomorrow as they become available.
Click here to add these blogs to your email inbox.
88 Comments:
I totally concur, Gary! Voting is a huge right and a huge responsibility. What's more - it's exciting and powerful to be part of a democracy. People of faith need to be in prayer for this election - absolutely. We need to be electing people who truly represent as many of the positions and platforms that are in line with Biblical values as possible. We need to vote for those we can trust, respect, support and believe in. As Justice Patterson said, we need to move this country to a time of rejoicing and away from groaning. I urge all of us to spend time in prayer and to spend time really getting to know the candidates and their positions on all the issues that are not just important to them - but that would be important to God. Thank you for a fine posting, Gary!
Let's not forget to vote for SUSAN OWENS in the Supreme Court race. She will protect our religious freedoms by ensuring our government stays out of the religion business.
VOTE SUSAN OWENS!
I find the current poll re: judges rulings to be quite fascinating. See below.
The correct answer is "fair" because Jehovah loves a "fair" weight - fairness IS justice. Jehovah calls us to be just or "fair".
The question was of course posed to elicit the answer of "the law". The fact that so many Evangelicals fell for this one shows the level of right-wing brain-wash that has occurred in our country. Historically of course this is not surprising since the Evangelical saint Calvin, right-wing, terrorist dictator of Geneva was directly involved with burning a peaceful human being alive simply because he had a different theology. He was, of course, not alone in his terrorist oppression of the peaceful citizens of Geneva.
I am saddened by so many decent people coming to the Lord but are quickly swallowed up and then misled into organizations that preach and teach contrary to His call thus becoming "two fold more a child of hell" then their progenitors. Admittedly, I was one of those people so I understand the process - the young are VERY ignorant and easily beguiled with all the Jesus talk.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Human,
Obviously you have been hurt and misled at some point in your life. I am not a calvinist Christian, but don't you think your comments are a little over the top?
And after we vote, we must begin the fight for election reform. Beaverton is ground central for the open source software movement. We have the expertise right here to bring confidence in the fairness and accuracy of the machines that count our precious vots. Write to your representatives and demand open source software and a counting process the utilizes a real paper ballot. Confidence in our elections would be a large step in bridging the divide in this country!
Anon 5:12
I am willing to admit my comments are over the top if we all review the evidence and it can be shown to be so - I would rather not have to speak what I do.
HOWEVER,if you read through Calvin's Geneva in Philip Schaff's history (who a Calvinist partisan ALBEIT a reasonable gentleman), you will see that Calvin and the other Swizz reformers put Zarquawi (sp??) to shame.
Please look up Michael Servetus and you will read of Calvin's terrorist atrocity on this peaceful human being. Also look up Gruet, etc.
The basic problem is young, ignorant unsaved people are brought to Christ and then are sucked into some organization that uses the name of Jesus and, thus, begin to believe everything for the simple reason that there are no alternatives. Therefore, 99% of the average Christian knows nothing of the atrocities of Geneva (I barely do myself BUT enough to cause great trembling because I know this spirit is alive and sick in the theocratic/religious right movement).
I invite you to do a bit of reading and form your own judgements of this exceedingly dark period. Then report back and tell me if you still think I am over the top. AND while you are at it, why not read a few snippets from Simon Menno - probably one of the few genuine disciples back at that time.
http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps107.shtml
Peace,
In Him who has called us,
Human
Anon 5:40
AMEN AND AMEN!!!!
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Wise words Gary .. getting out to vote is important , and having a voice is important in free societies .
Heard Joe Fruiten today on a Christian Radio show today , he was quite more knowledgable of politics that I had thought , and quite polite.
Human I do not find Gary in any way shape or form promoting a theocratic right , nor your connection to Geneva making any sense .
Again you are mistaken , and your bigoted views are evident . For the record , my denomination , the fastest growing in the United States by the way , was started in 1906 , it was basically an all black beginnings .
Your connection with Evangelicals and racism I find coming from a lack of education , and knowledge , , not a Christian view at all . Your wrong or a liar ..
I have asked you to stop your hateful speeches , why do you continue . its not Bibical to continue , you detract from conversation here , and your only support comes from those that hate the very God you claim to love . Does this link with you and those who hate the God of Jacob and Abraham not at all make you consider your stands as being in left field .. No pun intended .
That the majority of Christianity , including Evangelicals do so much good , feed so many poor , clother so many families in this country, provide education , bring the message Of christ , provide Homeless shelters, shelters for women , for abused children , and offer with teh mercy of Christ , the samelife giving Gospel you consider ignorant fools here in this country accept ,
Wow fruit have you shown , where is your church Human .. Why are you afraid to use your real name .
well I am glad I am an ignorant fool my friend , and I suggest to you that to become the great Jesus warrior you want to be , you need to be quite a bit humbler , in fact willing to be last , and accept the words of the Savior as a child does , not as some cult leader who is saving us from our selves ..
,
Voter guides are used in leading , Envirnomental organizayions homsexual rights organizations , liberal churches promote , and other organizations information on how political candidates vote on important issues that relate to their members .
Gary does a GREAT service ..
Encourgaging people to vote and providing that information .
You should be happy , can't you just see all the good it has done .. I mean at my kids school , only the cops have guns .
{People such as your self and your continued harrassment have changed my views , and this organization is much more important then i had thought . So I guess thanks for making an impact .
You have no facts to support your claims and as geru points out , you have not met any of us ..
Instead of debating lower taxes and such ,I find those find fault in him much like you Human , bigoted , political driven , lacking the tolerance and love you preach .. You should run for office , you will most likely get elected .
So geru,
This is from the local liberal Uniterian church in my county .
They have quite the political active church .. Explain to me the difference between the left doing it and the right ?
http://www.kuuf.org/uuvoter.htm
Elections Are Coming Soon.
Vote for a Change!
In this Newsletter you will find:
Voter's Guide
No I-920
No I-933
Yes I-937
How to Phone Call from Home to Get Out the Vote
Rev. Paul Rasor's Sermons on Democracy
http://www.uuvoices wa.org/story/ resources. html
Voter's Guide:Read how your State and Federal candidates responded to Poverty Action's questions in Statewide Poverty Action's 2006 Voters Guide .
http://www.capwiz. com/povertyactio n/e4/address/ ?state=WA
Vote NO on I-920 and I-933
Initiatives benefit the wealthy at the expense of everyone else
Initiatives are policy changes that are put to a vote by all the people in the state of Washington , if the sponsors can get enough signatures to qualify.
This year multi-millionaires and rich developers pumped a lot of money into paying signature gatherers to put two initiatives on the ballot that could have a big impact on people with lower incomes in Washington .
Read below to find out more about why you should vote NO on I-920 and I-933 .
Vote NO on Initiative 920
Initiative 920 would mean a big tax cut for multi-millionaires and force big budget cuts to educational programs for children and adults with lower incomes. I-920 would eliminate the state’s estate tax, a tax that is levied on the estates of rich people when they die.
Would cut taxes for the wealthy!
The estate tax is one of the most progressive ways that the state raises money, meaning it is the fairest to people with lower incomes. Only 250 of the state’s wealthiest multi-millionaires pay the estate tax each year. In fact, the estate tax only affects estates valued over $2 million ($4 million for married couples) and all family farms are exempt.
So if you are one of the 99.5 per cent of everyone else in Washington state who is NOT a multi-millionaire you will never pay the estate tax and this tax cut does nothing for you!
Would cut education for people with lower incomes!
However if you or your children go to school in Washington , this tax cut initiative could definitely hurt you. Washington raises $100 million a year to pay for education assistance for underprivileged children, lower class sizes and financial aid for people who cannot afford to go to college. Without this revenue, these services could be dramatically cut.
For more information about the impact of Initiative 920 visit the campaign website at www.NOon920. org .
Vote NO on Initiative 933
Initiative 933 is sometimes called the “takings” or “big developers” initiative. This measure is a favorite among wealthy, out of state Libertarians, who have put up a lot of the money to get this on the ballot.
I-933 would force state, city and county government to make huge payments to property-owners for any policies that might decrease their property values. If governments don’t pay, they would be required to waive the laws or regulations. A lot of people are talking about the effect that I-933 could have on the environment, but it could also have devastating consequences for people with lower incomes.
Would force big budget cuts!
It is estimated that it will cost the state over $4 billion a year to pay out to property owners and big developers under I-933. To put that in perspective, the state’s two year General Fund Budget in 2006 totaled just about $26 billion. If over two years, I-933 costs $8 billion to implement that would represent over one third of the state’s basic operating expenses!
If I-933 passes cities, counties and states would be forced to start making budget cuts and would likely start with health care and human services for people with lower incomes.
Would dramatically reduce low-income housing!
If it passes I-933 could dramatically reduce the number of low-income housing units in cities and counties across the state. How? Many cities and counties pass “inclusionary zoning laws” which require big developers to make a certain number of housing units available to households with lower incomes. The initiative could wipe out these laws or any similar laws which may pass in the future. It could also eliminate certain involuntary fees that fund low-income housing projects!
For more information about the impact of Initiative 933, visit the campaign website at www.NOon933. org
Vote Yes on I-937
Why We Need I-937
Washington has the opportunity to take hold of our future for our children and grandchildren. By investing in wind, solar and energy efficiency we can meet future electricity needs and preserve Washington 's clean air.
Will the future mean dirty energy from coal plants, or clean energy from conservation and renewable resources like wind and solar? Initiative 937 would guarantee that by 2020, 15% of the electricity from Washington's largest utilities comes from sources that do not pollute the air, and that home and business owners get the assistance they need to save energy and reduce monthly bills.
Volunteers and donations welcome! Call the YES! on I-937 campaign at 206-283-3335 today to make a donation or let us know how you'd like to help out.
Call For Change with MoveOn: It's Too Close NOT to Call
This year, victory will come down to voter turnout. We've found the Democratic-leaning people who often don't vote in mid-term elections like this one. If we can just get these “unlikely voters” to vote, they'll provide a winning margin in a whole bunch of races.
Over 30 races are in a dead heat – margins of a few thousand or few hundred votes. We’ve tested these calls, and we know they work – the people we talk to are much more likely to turn out. Your calls could tip the balance – but we're in a daily struggle to make sure we're reaching more voters than the Republicans’ infamous turnout program. Can you help? If so sign up with MoveOn
http://pol.moveon. org/phone/ volunteer/ c4c.html
Sermons On Liberal Religion and Democracy by Rev. Paul Rasor, the Director of The Center for The Study of Religious Freedom, are available. Click here to get to our Resources page and scroll the bottom of the page.
http://www.uuvoices wa.org/story/ resources. html
Sincerely, Corinne Dee Kelly, Co Coordinator
Washington State UU Voices for Justice: A Legislative Advocacy Network
438 NE 72nd St , Sea. Wa. 98115 206 526 7081
uuvoices@connectexp ress.com
Mick,
I don't know the Uniterian church and I'm not going to make comments/judgements on them. I'm not sure what you are fishing for with this.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mick,
For some reason you keep attacking and disparaging me - I am puzzled as to why since I have only reached out to you.
Though Jesus did experience the same thing from those that crucified Him.
I invite you again, as I have done, to pick one item that bothers you and I will work with you on it.
I am happy to provide you my real name if you really think that will help you. Please provide your email.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Human if I had people feeling compelled to explain scripture to me, telling me I take scripture out of context, asking me if I was a new Christian, saying I sounded like them before I became a Christian, saying I was over the top........again and again and again.......
I would stop talking. I would seek God with every ounce of my being---search myself from head to toe and again from to to head--and examine every belief I have and then turn around and do it all over again and ask God to help me discern truth.
When I see that most of this web site contains your entries (even though there are over 5,000 other people who could also make entries but choose not to monopolize this site), when I hear you make claims about current events and our president that have no basis in fact, when I hear you claim you are a true disciple, when you make it sound like you are the one in the know about how a Christian is to behave, that you have the real insite into what the bible says, that everyone else is mistaken in their understanding of you......
I see pride.
I see a chip on the shoulder along with pride when it comes to Human.
I'm not going to go against the general notion of taking some self inventory and reflection from time to time and the potential value of the discernment of others if they genuinely care, because I think we all should do that, but in Human's defense people on here use questioning your Christianity as a method of making a personal attack on those they disagree with and people on here from all sides have had some wildly different ways of interpreting scripture. Anon. 12:43 gives us all some good direction for something to do that has positive value - but I would be more careful in using as evidence some of the stuff you started off there with.
Anon 12:34
It is interesting to me that you chose to attack and condemn - whereas most of most posts have been concilatory. I note that many of posts are simply responses.
However, if you can identify a single issue that we could review together, I would be happy to do so.
I also note that each of the condemnations that you leveled at me could just as easily be leveled at the FNF - the following being the key example:
"when you make it sound like you are the one in the know about how a Christian is to behave, that you have the real insite into what the bible says"
Also, I kind of suspect most of those "people" are roughly 1 or 2 people. Therefore, those perspectives hold little weight. I doubt more than a half a dozen people actually blog on this site.
Sincerely,
In the love of Christ,
Human
To Human and any other person hurt by a church or a Christian, I would only say that that is why we don't look at churches or people to be perfect. They never will be. I grew up in a strict church with well meaning people. Most of what they taught was right, some was not. People were often not informed or educated. We can't blame them for that. They did the best they could do with what they knew at the time. If we read scripture and ask God to help us to understand it, He will. We also have to be willing to look at our past experiences and ask God to help us to forgive those that hurt us. Sometimes that was a well meaning or not so well meaning parent, teacher, pastor or church.
We go on from here and now asking God to direct our thoughts and beliefs. It is amazing what he can do with us and our lives if we follow His direction along with the words of His scripture in totality. Don't let any church have control of your thinking. Live for God with a humble, individual relationship.
Guru,
Thanks for the support - it seems the truth brings out the worst sort of demons in certain souls.
I strongly suspect we are only dealing with one or maybe two bloggers who are, at best, newbies to the Christian experience and are currently lost in a right wing organization masquerading as a church.
Despite my best efforts, this most recent Anon has never provide one genuine instance of something that I said that was wrong or a text that I misused from scripture.
However, I continue to be willing to receive it.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Anon 1:35
Nice statement - you sound very different from some of the Anon's that have reflected the typical "Republican attack-dog" mentality. I appreciate someone who at least (and I expect is) a genuine disciple of Jesus Christ.
Thanks for your input and it is certainly true.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
ROTFLMAO!
The way you Christian bicker and judge each other, one really has to question if more Christianity would lead to more peace.
-JC
In light of the preliminary eletion results across the nation, it is showing the transformation of this country and revealing why the United States of America is NOT in the Bible! This is amazing to witness!
Following is a quote about Nancy Polosi etc.:
"Nancy Pelosi expressed the danger best when she told Tim Russert that the only reason the terrorists are in Iraq are because we are, and that is why we should get out.
This will surprise some of you. Nancy Pelosi got it right. Well, she got it half-right. I agree that the only reason the terrorists are in Iraq is because we are. But that isn't a reason to withdraw. It is the best reason to stay.
Before the Bush administration made Iraq 'a magnet for terrorists', the magnet for terrorists was the United States homeland. The terrorists recruit jihadists by PROMISING them death in combat with the enemy. Dying in combat is the goal. One goes where the chances are best.
From our perspective, we are much better off if the American targets are highly motivated and well-trained professional soldiers, sailors and Marines than if they were unarmed, untrained and unprepared American civilians.
It only took 19 guys a few hours to kill 3,000 American civilians. 9/11 cost the terrorist world 19 casualties, all of whom were unimportant minor operatives. It took the dedicated and concerted effort of the entire terrorist apparatus more than five years to kill 3000 American service members. And it cost them thousands of their own to do so, including almost all of their top leadership.
The terrorists would love to be able to go back to the good ol' days when their victims were unsuspecting civilians. That is what Nancy Pelosi is offering as a 'solution' which is why the terrorists themselves are rooting for a Democratic victory.
Apart from the administration's Ramadan dinners and theological pronouncements regarding the legitimacy of Islam as a religion of peace of love, the Republicans have been doing a pretty good job.
The economy, despite Democratic efforts to talk it down, is arguably the best its ever been in the history of the world. America not only has statistical full employment, there are so many jobs available that there are more than 12 million jobs being held down by illegal aliens.
This isn't a defense of the Bush administration's immigration policy -- the Bush administration doesn't seem to have one. But consider this. If all the illegals went home tomorrow, those 12 million jobs would go unfilled. THAT's how strong the economy actually is.
It is SO strong that there aren't enough unemployed workers to fill the jobs that exist now. Some 95.7% of Americans have jobs -- the 4.3% who remain unemployed are statistically insignificant.
They include the unemployable; the infirm, the mentally ill, unwed mothers, criminals, which reduces the 4.3% of Americans without jobs to a statistical nothing.
The Democrats have pledged to 'fix' the economy by raising taxes, increasing the minimum wage, etc., which will simultaneously reduce the amount of disposable income available and raise the price of goods and services. One needn't be an economist to know that when you try and fix something that isn't broken, you end up fixing it until it is.
In watching the Democrats tick off all the 'problems' they want to fix, it is always the same three things. They want to retreat from the war on terror, 'fix' the economy and 'send a message' to the Republicans. But if they have a plan for accomplishing it, it is a closely guarded secret."
JC, The Bible tells believers to "correct and admonish in love" each other if error is obvious. So, what you consider bickering is not to be taken by outsiders as a bad thing. Seeking truth is very important and since Christians come under a myriad of denominations or angles of belief there will be differences of opinion. Humility is what is needed by all who profess themselves as believers. When we hang onto a "I know everything" attitude we are not practicing humility and do need to be corrected.
Do you have all peace and harmony in your home?
As Ruth Graham, wife of Billy Graham, once said, "If both husband and wife agree on everything, one is not necessary!" Wise words. We are human and we do need each other's insight.
Anon 8:52
Thanks for your wise words - I believe there are ways of "correcting and admonishing" that are "in love". I am hopeful that I have done this and I don't believe I have ever attacked anyone personally other than to point out what I consider, at times, blatent hypocrisy by FNF.
However, I have been ripped and condemned - with no basis provided and no follow discussion. Yet in the spirit of submitting ourselves one to another, I have always requested specifics. I have never yet received them.
Needless to say, your point is well taken as long as we do it "in love" and in the spirit of gentleness (Gal 6:1 I believe).
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Anon 8:45
With all due respect, a lot of your lines are right out of the right wing play book and simply don't reflect reality. Jesus called us to speak the truth - to judge according to righteousness. Thus I am neither a Dem or Rep but seek to work through the issue.
I see the good and evil in both parties and in many positions - I also recognize the complexities of many of the issues.
Valuing human beings is the most critical basis to start with - eliminating malice and cheating (hence, political dirty tricks that the Republicans are famous for) is essential in reflecting Jesus.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
"The War on Terror"
People who parrot this phrase always make me think of the movie 'Brazil' where a fascist government creates its own terrorists by its repressive actions to suppress terrorism.
Reality check - terrorism is a tactic. It is used by virtually ever adversarial group who's opponent is undefeatable in a toe to toe battle. The plagues of Moses were acts of terrorism. The actions of the european resistance in World War II were acts of terrorism. A 'war on terrorism' can never be won because there will always be justifications for using terrorist tactics.
What can happen is, like in Brazil, a government can start curtailing the citizens rights that will never return because the war is by definition unwinnable. In the previous thread someone mentioned that these were near the 'end times' - a powerful government removing the rights of its citizens would seem to me to be a pretty strong indication of the 'other sides' growing power.
You have been distracted - while you are becoming hysterical because you might have to treat others equally your right to habeus corpus has been legislated away! Priorities people! What should really be your concern - that you might have to be nice to someone living a life you wouldn't do yourself or that the government can now come and take you way in the night never to be seen again LEGALLY?
It makes me shake my head when people blindly support the fighting of some other nation's civil war at a cost that will be a stone around the neck of their grandchildren, that think a 'war on terror' could ever be 'won', that having millions of their population in jobs that don't even produce a living wage is a good thing.
Put down that cup of Jonestown Kool-Aid™ and start thinking - its your only chance.
Gary,
We Voted!!!! Hurray!!!! We can all feel much better about our children's future this morning!
To Democrats!
Congratulations to you! Democrats won big.
I am not happy about the results but I am so grateful for our system and the blessing of voting. I hope you are too as our system worked in your favor :o). most importantly, it works!
"I have been ripped and condemned - with no basis provided and no follow discussion. "
That is not true. People have been speaking but I don't believe you have heard. You have asked for specifics, when you have already been given them. All humans are prone to this from time to time.
And there will be no follow up to this. I can't spend much time here.
Thanks again Gary! We asked for "God to bless America with His approval and His will" and we saw it happen yesterday! (Come on, you know that's what this site would have been filled with if the Republicans had done that well)
Anon 11:26
Once again, statements without specifics and a lame excuse not to leave something specific.
Hopefully you will have courtesty to prayer for me if you find the time to condemn me.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Guru,
Do I hear the jingle of God's judgement on liars, hypocrites, theofascists full of malice and anti-Christ acts?? I recommend a regular listening to AM1090 to learn of the anti-Christ evil that the Republican's engaged in this election - pathetic!
Not totally certain God had anything to do with this but it would certainly be warranted.
Needless, to say, I have no conviction that we will see a great ray of light with the Democrats in charge BUT I will withold judgement in order that they at least might clean up some of the disaster created by by the incompetents who were elected by the Evangelical Religious Right.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
OV,
Your comment/analysis (requoted below) is brilliant and, of course, obvious without a philosphical axe to grind (meaning to be a party of the oppression). In this case, these humans, primarily without Christ, resort to evil to fight evil - that is the sadness.
The cause of terrorism is primarily due to US Foreign Policy - this is so basic as to be (apparently) be literally blinding. The US MADE Saddam (including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Daddy Bush, etc), the CIA MADE Osama Bin Laden -
In light of all the obvious, who are the real enemies of America?? of Freedom?? of Peace??
Yes, you know their names and their Evangelical, Right Wing, Anti-Christ lackies who have allowed themselves to be deceived by making judgements based on appearance rather than based on righteousness.
Which is exactly why God exposed the evil Ted Haggad.... that which is done in the darkness shall be shouted aloud. Indeed it was!!! Thank you, Lord Jesus for your word and your grace!!
"The War on Terror"
People who parrot this phrase always make me think of the movie 'Brazil' where a fascist government creates its own terrorists by its repressive actions to suppress terrorism.
Reality check - terrorism is a tactic. It is used by virtually ever adversarial group who's opponent is undefeatable in a toe to toe battle.
Human,
I was just having some fun. After Bush's re-election and the Republican win in 2004 I heard over and over that God's will had been done with the voting. I didn't like it then and I wouldn't like it now if someone seriously said that about this election either. But some of them were serious in 2004, which makes me wonder - do they now think God's will has changed?
Human said-"I will withold judgement in order that they at least might clean up some of the disaster created by by the incompetents who were elected by the Evangelical Religious Right."
Human- It is very hard to believe you. You have this way of contradicting yourself. As it stated in another post humility is what we are asked of. Christ does not want us to judge yet your statements tend to differ here or there? This does not help your testimony for christ- nor does the slipped in name calling(surrounded by peace and love). You call for us to be kind and loving yet you name call. My heart goes out to you- non christians are looking for your fruit- many know here JC and oshivishi do not have the fruit of Gods spirit. You gently plundge yourself down with them every Blog.
Jc- Gods will for us never changes. He wants the best for us. Better than we can even imagine. The problem is we have to choose the best. Some people are not well informed and make guessing choices. Some study up and feel they did the best choice. Some do not care. Some do not vote.Some call there friends on the eve of election and ask my opinion. The thing is- we have to choose the right way. God already knew the outcome. It was our choice. And there are only two kinds of choices the good and the bad. Period. The consequences Good or bad are ahead of us. Hopefully it is good.:-)
Anon 1:12
Perhaps you have a point - let us think this through. I am open to correction.
At one point Jesus calls the Pharisees the sons of Satan - at another point, He picks up the small child and gives it love. Is He inconsistent? Is He someone other than Jesus? Paul at one time is strong against sin and evil, at other times implores gentleness and tenderness. Is it the same Paul?
You mention name calling - other than noting what I perceive as some very blatent hypocrisy exhibited by FNF (that is totally unecessary), I don't believe I have call ANY OTHER BLOGGER a name. If you can find a post in which I did, please inform me.
However, I do speak corporately as the following shows and I believe in the same spirit of Paul and Jesus noted above:
The reality is that the Evangelical Religious Right has brought great evil both recently and in times past to society as a whole (see Alcohol prohibition as a great Evangelical Religious Right contribution to the "well-being" of America). Not infrequently we find their leaders making Jesus' Father's house a den of theives by their marketing of tapes, books that no one really needs - we all know that Jesus is all whom we need - He is the all things in all.
The reality is this same community, with hardened hearts voted in men who have brought great disaster to the world simply because they do not genuinely value human beings - therefore, it is okay to drop bombs on them, etc. in the name of national security (read: because I fear being killed by your leader therefore I am going to kill you regardless) - all motivated by fear. All of this is anti-Christ. Yet the ERR (note the acronym) bought it hook line and sinker.
My goal is to save some from this insidious deception that has woven itself into the heart of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Incompetent?? Of course - they did not even have a plan - and if they did, I hope that what we see now is not it - because it is a grotesque carnage of stealing killing and destroying - and you well know which spirit that comes from.
I hope this discussion both reconciles my responses as well as supports the postion I present. I am delighted to correct any of my statements since my sole goal is to accurately reflect Jesus Christ on the planet - in doing so, I am compelled to point out that which is anti-Christ - especially by those who would disparage His name for political connivance (classic Republican political strategy that has recently been revealed - but the true disciple has known about this for years).
Does this make sense? I am happy to dialogue on any point further.
Peace,
In Him who gave His all for us,
Human
What if, just think about the last two presidential elections, what if, God WANTED G.W. Bush to be President at this time in history?
Bush never aspired to be president but I am amazed at how he has functioned under the enormous pressure the liberal Democrats, the press, the entertainment industry, foreign countries, etc. have put on him for all these years! IF God wanted him in that position for these times, maybe, just maybe God has given him the grace to still be sane!!!
He has had to not only battle a war that he never started; but, he has had to battle our own countrymen! This is amazing!
Let me ask: If YOU were president, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? Think this question through as, in my estimation, it would take an act of God to be able to function in this very transparent world we are living in. Could YOU have functioned any better? Do you think you would have been able to make this world any better? Follow through on any scenario to see what outcomes would happen - not day dreams or wishful thinking but concrete results with a large portion of your countrymen against you at every turn!
We are so quick to criticize another person's actions, especially when we are just flapping our ideas and mouth with no actual involvement - armchair quaterbacking.
Compare him to, say, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and what he as a leader of a heavy Muslim run country proposes. Iran used to NOT be Muslim, but Persian! That country was taken over and now is not the same! What if we, the United States of America, were "overcome" or highly influenced by the Muslim religion?!?
Human
I find you only see hypocrisy with the Republican Party. Do you not feel the Democrat Party practices hypocrisy?
Anon 6:01
Good question - you are interacting intelligently with what I have been saying. Thanks - it is a welcome change.
If you read through my posts, you will find that I find great evil in the Democratic party as well. Bill Clinton's Plan Colombia (the Andean Initiative) reflects the quintessence of barbaric practice. Please review the below link from the Mennonite Chuch - it is enough to make your stomach turn and show just how evil the US Federal Gov is (and, obviously, which spirit energizes it) and why people around the world hate this government (but, usually, love Americans).
http://www.mennonitechurch.ca/programs/peace/colombia/index.htm
Does this make sense? Evil is evil - it does not belong to a political party.
There are a LOT of issues on both sides - I know we could choose to all work together and come close to succeeding by focusing a) human value and, thus, b) not hurting one another (Rom 13:10). This NO more legislating morality with its resultant violence.
Thanks,
In Christ,
Human
Anon 4:56
Tsk, Tsk, right wing clap trap at its finest - "a war he never started" - YO, DUDE!!! You and Ahmandinejad would make a fine team - no Holocaust and Bush did not start the Iraq. No wonder Evangelical Relgious Right don't have any credibility and get called "wingnuts", etc.
I hope some sane Evangelicals will note this and note that it is time to turn back to reality and work from that as a basis.
Peace,
In Christ,
Human
Lets look at history in brief:
WWI: Kaiser Wilhelm wanted to expand his naval forces. Britain objected. USA tried to stay neutral. Pres. Woodrow Wilson (Democrat) declared "war" after German U-boat sunk passenger liner Lusitania. Pres. W.Wilson initiated League of Nations as attempt to let WWI be the "war to end all wars". L of N evolves into UN. Congress never approved USA to join L of N.
WWII: Hitler didn't bother to honor any treaties and attacked Europe. Germany declared war on USA and sent German boats to our Eastern shores. Pres. FDR (Democrat) had to declare war against the Germans. Japan attacks (declared war) USA at Pearl Harbor.
So, it appears Democrat Presidents also declare war on agressors!
Human - You do a lot of double speak! You speak that you only say what the Bible says and then you spout off on a tirade that is your own! Your attitude toward the "evangelical religious right", as you like to put it, is such a blanket statement as if ALL on the "religious right" are of the same cloth! Jesus knows EACH ONE OF THEM/US! Do you?
Why do you want people to pray for you? What is it that you want people to pray about?
"Human- It is very hard to believe you. You have this way of contradicting yourself. As it stated in another post humility is what we are asked of. Christ does not want us to judge yet your statements tend to differ here or there? This does not help your testimony for christ- nor does the slipped in name calling(surrounded by peace and love). You call for us to be kind and loving yet you name call. My heart goes out to you- non christians are looking for your fruit- many know here JC and oshivishi do not have the fruit of Gods spirit. You gently plundge yourself down with them every Blog. "
Human PLEASE listen to this.
You say "my sole goal is to accurately reflect Jesus Christ on the planet" I believe you--but please listen to what people keep telling you . If that is truly your "goal" I beg of you to start listening to the other Christians on here.
There is nothing worse than going along thinking we are so right and getting ourselves way out there--only to see later the harm and damage we have done--especially to Christ's name. I know--I've done it--and you are doing it too.
Human and Guru -
1) In I John 4:19-21, "We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."
Question: President Bush claims he is a Christian. Billy Graham claims he is a Christian. Do you believe them? If so, and you claim to be a Christian, the above verses say you must love them.
2) What "Jesus" do you believe in?
Will you describe the "Jesus" you believe in? Who is he, where did he come from, what happened to him?
3) Would you share what church or denomination you affiliate with?
The "gay" community claims that the "sins" of Sodom and Gomorrah were lack of hospitality not sex sin.
In Jude (one of Jesus' half brothers) verse 7, he says, "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to SEXUAL IMMORALITY AND PERVERSION. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
In Jude (one of Jesus' half brothers) verse 7, he says, "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to SEXUAL IMMORALITY AND PERVERSION. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
All your quote shows is how twisted the original texts have become by those trying to justify their prejudices. That entire phrase you have in capitals comes from a short phrase which literally meant 'sex with "other flesh"'. This term was used in Roman culture to denote 'other than human flesh'. This refers to the Enochian legends popular at the time that the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah were having sex with angels (only mentioned in passing in the standard biblical Genesis text). The term would never be used to denote any type of sex between human beings, same sex or not.
So exactly what does having sex with angels have to do with homosexuality? Every reference to Sodom and Gomorrha in the bible makes it clear it was their arrogance and inhospitality to strangers that brought them the condemnation of God. This is very specifically spelled out in the Wisdom of Solomon, a text not included in the bible but does illustrate what the opinions at the time were.
os,
I understand the Bible as we know it comes from ancient texts and the word or meaning translations can be odd; BUT, your reference to the people in S & G having sex with angels is assumptive. The "angels" appears as man. The people of S & G didn't know they were angels. They asked for the "men".
I am sorry, but your assessment that "every reference to S & G in th Bible makes it clear it was their ARROGANCE and INHOSPITALITY to strangers that brought them the condemnation of God." This is just not so no matter how much you want to believe it.
What "specifically spelled out in the Wisdom of Solomon" passage are you referring to? If it is not in the Bible, then it is not accepted as Scripture. That there are many manuscripts that are not included in the Bible does not make them valid as reliable. The Bible does say of itself, all Scripture is inspired by God - written down by many authors over many years, but all under the inspiration of God at the time.
Now, you can choose to believe this or not, as you will. God will be the judge as to who is following his will and who is not.
For you in all your "readings" to, with (using your term) arrogance, project to all others that you are right and what you say should shut down all others who oppose what you say is full of pride. This is not "judgemental" but fact based on many Christians over centuries who have in humility come to know the salvation of God through Jesus. People of every nation and tongue that have responded to God's call. Not to Mohammud, Buddah or other deities; but through Jesus the Christ, son of the living God.
Amen!!!!! 8:16am
You are confused - the statement isn't about someone ATTEMPTING to have sex with 'other flesh' it says they DID have sex with 'other flesh'. This isn't about the angels that were in the town with Lot - remember no one had sex with them. You are probably unfamiliar with the bible and its related texts but even in Genesis it tells of how the angels descended from heaven and had sex with women resulting in monsters. THAT is the legend that is being talked about in Jude - at the time of the early Christians the Enochian legends spelled this out in more detail it was in these two towns that this abomination occurred. And again, 'other flesh' never ever ever refers to sex between two humans regardless of gender, age or even viability. Jude does NOT refer to homosexuality - it can't.
And you say I am wrong about the references to Sodom and Gomorra in the Bible - do you have a single one to back that up? Are you really going to make me type them all in here knowing they all support my claims all the way down to the comment by Jesus himself? A taste:
Ezeikel48 As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters!
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters, but she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
And as to your trying to dismiss the Wisdom of Solomon you might have a case IF it contradicted the bible's references but it doesn't. These are historical documents and even ones didn't make the cut to the official anthology still have information in them that is useful and relevant.
For you in all your "readings" to, with (using your term) arrogance, project to all others that you are right and what you say should shut down all others who oppose what you say is full of pride.
Stating the truth is not prideful, its educational. You don't get to twist the word 'other flesh' to mean what ever suits your fancy and my pointing that out to you is not prideful - more pathetic its even required. Rewriting history is 'prideful', twisting the meaning of a word to suit an agenda is 'wicked'. Face it, Christians don't willfully lie, they don't willfully misrepresent - so the statement that tried to twist a very specific reference to sexual sin that didn't even relate to homosexuality to appear that it did is unChristian and shouldn't be being defended by Christians.
os,
The Lord rebuke you! This is his world and his program. He is in control, not me.
That you can't defend the misrepresentation of the word 'other-flesh' in Jude is duly noted and logged. Hysterical yelling of "I can't be wrong even though I obviously am" aren't really too effective.
Well said 8:16!!!!
Oshtur we have been here before. Your ongoing outrageous claims about what the bible says -- shows your lack of knowledge. We have all seen it--yet you continue on?? Why???
And yes, as others have noted above, you are wrong. Again and again and again you are wrong.
Especially for Oshtur Vishanti complements of Mission America.COM
Myth # 3: The story of Sodom and Gomorrah did not condemn homosexuality. On the contrary, the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) is quite obviously about homosexuality. The sins of the people were numerous, but their “trademark” sin was homosexual sex, which is apparent in the original passage as well as later Bible references to the event.
In the Genesis account, Lot and his family barricade themselves and their male guests inside their home as protection against the sexual depravity of a gang of males: “Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, ’Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.’” (verses 4-5) Lot begs them to go away, then offers them his virgin daughters instead (one more clear indication of the predators’ goal). Despite Lot’s questionable parenting here, the mob threatens Lot and accuses him of being judgmental (shades of 2005!), then begins to break down the door. The two guests, who’ve previously been identified as angels (verse 1), pull Lot back into the house and send a blinding light to disperse the crowd. The angels then instruct Lot and his family to flee the town, which they are about to destroy. This destruction occurs soon afterward.
The Bible provides a laundry list of grave sins committed by the Sodomites: pride and insolence (see Ezekiel 16:49-50; 2 Peter 2: 6-10), gluttony (Ezekiel 16:49), greed and laziness (Ezekiel 16:49-50), disrespect toward God and His true believers(Isaiah 3:9, Ezekiel 16:50), false worship (Deuteronomy 29:23-26; Isaiah 1:10-11; Jeremiah 23:14; Ezekiel 16: 46-56), lies, especially by the prophets/priests (Jeremiah 23:14), violence (Isaiah 1:21) and neglecting the poor and orphaned (Isaiah 1:23, Ezekiel 16:49-50). The main sin mentioned is sexual immorality (Jeremiah 23:14; Ezekiel 46-56, 2 Peter 2:6-18; Jude 7-19), specifically homosexuality (Genesis 19:4-5; Ezekiel 16:50; 2 Peter 6-18; Jude 7-8) Subsequent references to the “twin cities” in both the Old and New Testaments use them as a metaphor or simile for many types of bad behavior, by which we get more information about their nature and reputation. Sodom and Gomorrah are also frequently referenced as examples of total corruption, subject to God’s wrath (Genesis 18:20; Deuteronomy 29:23; Isaiah 13:19; Jeremiah 49:18 and 50:40; Amos 4:11; Zephaniah 2: 9-10; Romans 9:29; 2 Peter 2:6-19), including by Jesus Himself (Matthew 10:15 and 11:24; Luke 10:12). Jesus was describing the fate of those cities refusing to hear the Gospel.
Some ill-informed Christian writers contend Sodom and Gomorrah really describes the consequences of being “poor hosts” to strangers, violating customs in the ancient near East. When one reads all the relevant Bible passages, such a pitiful and inadequate explanation is not possible.
Oshtur we have been here before. Your ongoing outrageous claims about what the bible says -- shows your lack of knowledge.
Right - my claims are 'outrageous' yet never a substantive rebuttal is given, just silly claims I'm the one with the 'lack of knowledge'. You aren't honestly trying to say without saying that Jude says something other than 'sarkos heteras',i.e.'other flesh', are you?
I continue on because the people here are being lied to about what the Scriptures say and they deserve to know the truth. Of course the ones that just whine and say I'm wrong and present nothing to support it can't be educated - but for every deceiver that so ineptly replies there are those that do say to themselves "Isn't it odd that only Oshtur can actually present facts to go with his opinions?" Those who's hearts are hardened won't be changed, but those that actually crave the truth will at the very least go and research what I have presented to see if it is true.
I mean look at the note with the cut and paste distortion from 'Mission America.com' Strip out the fluff and distraction and it has 4 verses it says refer to homosexuality. Now anyone with a brain is going to actually go look up these verses and see what they say. And the really interested will get their lexicon out and see what the original terms used mean. And when they do they will find:
Genesis 19:4-5 the crowd asked "to know" the strangers, just as in Judges 19 the mob asked the same regarding the hebrew guest and later raped his concubine to death. When the hebrew told the story he said the mob wanted to KILL him. The word meaning "to know" is used 943 times in the Old Testament and only used 10 times in a sexual sense EACH TIME only in a non-coercive romantic setting. Rape is not referred to anywhere else in the Old Testament as a desire 'to know' the victim.
It is only those who want the story of Sodom to be about homosexuality that interpret "to know" to mean carnally. Further at best what was being asked was for rape that is the obvious sin when comparing Genesis 19 and Judges 19, not anything to do with sexual orientation. The crowd in Genesis would no more be guilty of 'homosexuality' than the one in Judges would be guilty of 'heterosexuality' - the sin would be rape. These were just gangs of men, just like the gangs we have today - their goal is domination and power over others, not sensuality. I mean think - randy gay men don't have to rape someone else they have each other as willing partners.
Ezekiel 16:50 merely says that the Sodomites COMMITTED abominations, of which the laundry list of totally non-sexual sins listed previously is also. It again is self-serving, inaccurate and deceptive to assume that the use of the word meant anything specifically sexual let alone specifically homosexuality.
2 Peter 2:6-18 Never mentions homosexuality just libertine sexuality.
and Jude has already been clarified that it refers to sex with "other flesh" which referred to sex with something non-human not homosexuality.
So in this supposed rebuttal 4 lies are easily revealed. Its bad enough someone would distort the Scriptures and write trash like that to try and rationalize their prejudices but who would actually cut and paste it without having looked up the actual verses themselves and looked at them in both the original and translated texts?
I write because you have a right to be exposed to the truth, a truth you can easily research yourself from what I write. You have been systematically lied to for years on this subject with the above just a sample of how they distort what the Scriptures actually say to fit their anti-homosexual agenda.
Osthur,
Consider. The Bible does harmonize itself.
If you look closely, In the Genesis 6 passage about the "sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose." Any connection that there might have been sexual relating with "angels" can be because the "daughters of men" were among very evil (non the less beautiful) people, understand this, who were demon possesed by the fallen angels. The only way angels could "have sex" with humans is if they possess a human spirit. (Matthew 8:28-34 relate NO sex in heaven - angels nor humans)(aside, This would make Muslim terrorists pretty angry!)
If you look at various passages in the New Testament regarding demon possession (like Luke 8:26-39 - re. the man in the caves at Gerasenes. The deamons talked to Jesus so they were not "modern indefinable illness" some like to attribute). The "demons" didn't like being "unclothed". They wanted to posses something be it pigs, people or whatever generally living.
So, "the daughters of men" were of demon possession as were their families.
The seriousness of this is shown immediatly following the passage about these "sexual relating" to "angels", comes verse 5, "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the Lord said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them.'"
Oshtur, the reason you cannot see this is because of the spirit that is in you is evil. Only by coming to God in humility and accepting his gift of salvation through Jesus can this evil spirit leave you and you can be filled with God's Holy Spirit.
When you look at the man in the caves at Gerasenes and how when Jesus freed him from this possession, the man was in his right mind and composed. Peace at last.
human,
When you continually speak of "peace", do you not remember the verses in Luke 12: 49-, "'I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I cam to bring peace on earth? NO, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son aagainst father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.'"
The only way angels could "have sex" with humans is if they possess a human spirit.
Quite parroting what you've been told to say and think! What in the world difference does all this make to what Jude says? It still says the inhabitants of Sodom were having sex with 'other flesh' - that it doesn't mention the 'demon possession' you have crafted makes that any less true? (and of course your rationalization is really more of an illustration of the grecoroman corruption of judaic thought - angels were flesh and blood beings, not merely creatures of spirit.)
Oshtur, the reason you cannot see this is because of the spirit that is in you is evil
And you have probably just condemned yourself to Hell by making that judgement. Take a step back and realize how evil you yourself have become in your arrogance of trying to do God's work for him. You are the one defending deception, you are the one wrapped in lies, you are the one with the hardened heart, you are the one making judgement of others.
That you can't see your response doesn't deal with the question shows that your hatred has blinded you to reason. There are thousands of Christian sects, many that disagree on many interpretations of the other, but only the most corrupt go around calling the other points of view 'evil' as if they could speak for God.
If you really pray you should start doing so with gusto - you obviously don't have much hope left for your soul other than divine intervention.
8:59 is defending himself against evil. Evil is condemmed by god and we must stand strong and arm ourselves in warfare against evil. Thus we must not tolorate evil. untill you admit your of your a sinner you will not see. Is what you would like is us to do is blind our eyes of your evil. Turn away and allow you to keep your spunned ideas going. Thinking you are influencing people here is another delusion. We have allowed too much as christians. No longer. Our armour is on and we are ready to defend . And 8:59 just gave you an invitation of kindness. many are praying for your salvation. You are here for a reason. God wants you to turn away. Take what you spend turnign and twisting into a relationship with him. Not the world.
Again ignoring the issue that the poster was wrong about Jude yet every single one of you is too proud to admit it or can offer an explanation of how 'other flesh' refers sexual perversion other than bestiality or angel intercourse.
And I am just fine with God as it truly is - don't worry about it. Don't waste time being concerned for my 'evil' when you have so much of your own.
A group hallmarked by pride, hard heartedness, gossips, liars - the people posting to this newsgroup have far greater concerns than worrying about MY soul.
But then that is why I am here so you can be exposed to the truth - truth you can easily research for yourself - you don't have to take my word for it. It might be I'm casting pearls before swine but even swine need a chance to learn.
Oshtur, Do you not see your viewpoint goes completely against what centuries of theological studies by many serious students and people who have prayerfully sought God's guidance for truth? Do you consider all these great people are wrong? You are the only one with correct information? Over all the eons, all else are lost??? Only you and those who will believe you are "ok"?
I am sorry to report, but, that just doesn't fly.
Why you insist on posting on this "Christian" blog doesn't make sense since no one wants to accept your theory or teachings.
Even young children who have not studied the Bible or anything else can accept the gift from God. Also people who are impared like with Down's Syndrome. There are people who have been raised and cloistered in foreign countries have heard God's call and accepted Jesus as their savior in spite of their culture and country's religion! They do not nor ever have heard your "gospel" or teachings.
There is no hate here, just truth. Any "hate" you feel is between your ears.
God will or has judged us all. Those who have accepted God's give of Jesus have already passed from "judgement" (death) and into life. Praise the Lord!
Well said 6:44. The truth sets you free.And defending the truth is part of being a christian. That is why god gave us armor and strength to stand you OS. Praise God!And Good night to all my brothers and sisters in christ!
(Fear not ; stand firm in and see the salvation of the Lord, which He will work for you today. Exodus 14;13))
Oshtur,
What is it that you project you are "saving" people FROM?
What HOPE do you offer instead? Is there any long range plan?
Of course people can be wrong and deceived about something for centuries - what Christian person doesn't think the true meaning of God's word wasn't being corrupted from the moment it was written? That's what you'd expect the Devil to do, right?
Jude is an excellent example of this - read the original text and it clearly is NOT about sexual immorality in general but a very specific thing. Look how over the years the 'meaning' has been expanded and expanded and expanded to where someone offered it as 'proof' that Sodom was about homosexuality - one thing it couldn't be about. Progressive corruption of scriptural meaning is easily documented.
So yes, your interpretation of the Bible texts you embrace could be wrong and gotten progressively wrong from some initial error - the road way to Hell is paved with good intentions. That doesn't mean you don't love God, doesn't mean your God doesn't exist - just means you might not be doing all the things He really wanted you to be doing in the way He really wanted you to do them. Remember people just as Christian as you hold these opinions, every single one I have expressed using the scriptural justifications for same.
So what do I hope to accomplish - to offer the Christians who are on a unChristian path that is leading them to do unChristian things the documentable truth, truth they can research for themselves. Just because someone told you the Scriptures said something doesn't make it true - if its really true you can prove its true by actually reading the texts, the real texts - something that the people who write stuff like that Mission.org propaganda hope you won't actually do.
And those that haven't heard the corrupted version of the Scriptures are actually at an advantage - a child with Downs doesn't hate gays, doesn't want to make their lives unhappy, doesn't presume to decide what God wants for other people to the point of persecuting them and trying to make them second class citizens.
Again, back to Jude.
What the texts actually say is simple, a single tiny phrase. IF if there was some rational reasonable way that 'other flesh' could be interpreted to mean homosexuality someone would have presented it - it would have been an issue long ago discussed and decided - but no one has and that's because no one can. The terms meaning at the time it was written is clear - it is about non-human 'flesh', I know that, anyone who has researched it knows that, and the only reason you DON'T know that is you HAVE been systematically lied to for centuries. It is one of the corruptions that have crept into some Christian's views of Christianity.
So what can you be 'saved' from? - Treating others in ways they shouldn't be treated, doing things that hurt your neighbor rather than help them, stopped from doing things that aren't consistent with what Christians were really supposed to be doing.
What HOPE does being more truly in the path that Christianity offers bring? That question should answer itself. The long range plan is for you to have the tools you need to be better Christians - to be more in line with what Jesus taught and intended. In so many ways the people on this forum are the modern day Pharisees, bound up in judgement, rules, and texts that have hardening their hearts so that all they have left is the judgement and the rules and think that's what Christianity is all about - basically the total corruption of the core of Jesus's teachings.
Be more like the Christian child with Down's and stop thumping your versions of the Bible and open your hearts - you're path to God will be so very much more direct and true.
Oshtur,
Do you consider yourself a Gnostic?
Who do you say Jesus of Nazareth is?
What does "eternity" mean to you?
Maybe just maybe oshtur you should become more like the christian child with downs and stop thumping your version of the bible and open your heart.There is a spin everywhere of what people think gods word says. Most people do open the bible and read it. Especially here. Only version you go too is jude? Somtimes we look to closely at others and not ourselves. I know I do. And will spend more time tonight in the bible. But not reading just JUDE.
"I have to read the Gospel of Judas for the Gospel of Mark class? I think I read a summary on it the other night, what a hoax! Anyone who's read the four Gospels will know in a second that the Jesus presented by the gnostics is no one we know. I could hardly tell they were trying to talk about the same people. It's a different religion altogether." So states a current college student studying the gnostic gospels.
Once again, we do care about homosexuals when we elect those who will establish a nation that promotes healthy lifestyles. Study after study confirm that a lifestyle of one man one woman espoused by both Jesus and God is the healthiest lifestyle, so why in the world would not a just loving nation promote that lifestyle instead of allowing harmful lifestyles to proliferate?
Vote for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which of course is how to worship the Creator God in ones own way.
Do you consider yourself a Gnostic?
Oh no, less of a gnostic than Paul and most the people here. Gnosticism is a very obvious corruption of Judaic thought. It was the greeks and romans that thought there was a separate immortal soul from the body and that all things less than the soul were carnal, base and corrupt. Hence their need to retrocon Jesus into not being made of human flesh (as Paul thought and John warned such people were false prophets) and the extreme of Catholics retroconning his mother into an immaculate conception because of their terror over the flesh and the procreative act that spawns it. Also the sudden corruption of the promise of life immortal as the heavenly reward into all souls being immortal no matter where they end up as the Romans believed.
No no, gnosticism and all of its remnants are the source of so much of what is so very wrong with modern Christianity.
Who do you say Jesus of Nazareth is?
A very wise man who lived about 2000 years ago who taught a philosophy of mutual love and caring and reason to replace the dogmatic rule following and sin cataloging of Judaic tradition. He left no writings of his own and much of what he said and those who claimed to speak in his name we know has been twisted to fit the agenda's of others but with careful reading his true message and teachings still come through.
What does "eternity" mean to you?
A philosophical concept of all the time there every will be.
And will spend more time tonight in the bible. But not reading just JUDE.
There by avoiding the issue that many current 'versions' of the bible take a phrase and blatantly mistranslate it, an issue you obviously can't deal with. I am bring up Jude because it is such a clear example of the corruption that plagues Christianity - a single 2 word phrase that means 'other than human flesh' mistranslated to mean whatever the person wants it to mean. Such mistranslations and convoluted rationalizations are the hallmarks of those who have become infatuated with the corrupted side of Christian thought.
Study after study confirm that a lifestyle of one man one woman espoused by both Jesus and God is the healthiest lifestyle, so why in the world would not a just loving nation promote that lifestyle instead of allowing harmful lifestyles to proliferate?
Because a loving nation deals with it citizens the way they really are and not the way some members want everyone to be. Gay people have always been here, and they are here in stable numbers whether supported or persecuted - no proliferation will occur by acceptance and love. And regardless of what 'the best' form of families might be, it is still better for single people to be married regardless of the gender of their spouse. Knowing that no 'loving' nation could rationalize persecution that reaps no benefit and would want to make their gay citizen's lives as good as they can be regardless of if its the optimum configuration.
So again we come down to the real issue - how can any 'loving' nation say it is better for gay people to be single rather than married? How is it better for them to be persecuted rather than cherished? How is it better for the children of gay parents to have them unmarried when these families will exist regardless and would benefit from the totally secular civil contract of marriage just like or possibly even more than opposite gendered parented ones?
I saw an interesting metaphor the other day - that Adam and Eve in paradise before the Fall were like people looking into the sun, they had no concept of being without God. But after the Fall they turned from the sun and saw their shadow and knew themselves by their shadow, the parts of them that weren't like God.
Fundamentalism concentrates on the shadow rather than the light - obsessing about how people aren't like God more than how they are. And with this obsession with the darkness they make it nearly impossible for them to ever truly turn back to the sun.
Something to think about when you spend so much time worrying that someone might be getting just a bit too much of something you don't want them to have.
Oshtur, If Jesus was a "very wise man" as you say, you are attributing to him "wisdom", yet, if that is all he is he is a madman! He himself declares himself to be one with the Father/God. He called himself the "I AM"!
To say that "eternity" is a "philosophical concept" and that is all, would leave NO HOPE for people to look forward to after they die on this earth - and die we all will do on this earth, even you! A heart without hope is full of dispare, fear! This life is so short on this earth, some never make it even into this self breathing part of the earth! Yet, much love went into the anticipation of this new life.
I pity the person who has no hope. God has promised, and we humans know how important promises made by our parents etc. are! To not have a promise fulfilled is the crulest in the name of "love"!
To be "cherished" does not have to include sex!
Oshtur- again you read only the portions you wish to read- I claimed I would read not JUST JUDE! Again you acuse those of what exactly you do. Read only portions and believe only portions. Wish you could see your log and remove yours. And not try and get ours out your hurting yourself.
Yes, Jesus said we were all son's of God, God is everyone's Father in Christianity. That doesn't make Jesus mad, just means some of his biographers had axes to grind. He may have been a special son to God, but still just one of God's children as stated so many places in the bible.
And why would I hope for something I don't want? You are saying that not wanting to live forever should be somehow depressing? My goodness who would want to really? To everything there is a season - it is one of the failings of man that we want things to always stay the same, including our lives. Some may want to live forever and they free to if they can, but I wouldn't take that gift even if given freely without strings - my humble obligation to the future is to eventually make way for it and my eventual death is not a burden - its a gift.
And 9:50 you can be deliberately obtuse as much as you want - Jude is an illustrative example as has been stated about 3 or 4 times; I have read the entire bible, several times, in several version, many parts in the original texts. That you repeatedly try and avoid explaining the erroneous translation presented in this thread indicates that you can't deal with it. Either explain how the original text can mean 'homosexuality' or just be humble and admit you can't. Your pride seems to be your biggest log...
Oshtur,
Since you have read the Bible many times, you must have read the passage in I Corinthians 2:14 that says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (v.15) The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgement; 'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he many instruct him? (Isaiah 40:13); But we have the mind of Christ."
It grieves me to see you trying to put together "Scripture" in a way that has meaning to you and you demonstrate that you do not have the Spirit of God within you so you are on the outside looking in and that through a frosted glass!
It is like a cold dog desperatly scratching at the door hoping someone would open it and let him in to the warmth, or by his scratching would make a hole to get himself in. You demonstrate this by your long searching of "spiritual" things through your reading the Bible in several versions, several times, many parts in the (supposed) "original texts."
Wouldn't it just be easier on yourself to humble yourself before the God of this Universe and ask him for forgiveness? He is willing - while there is still "time" on your side. Eternity is forever. To be separated from God "forever" is NOT desirable!!! That, is HELL.
Our choice.
Oshtur,
What you are trying to do by your "teaching" is to rob people of their faith and leave nothing in its place! Christian's, beware, this man is an imposter!
More than an imposter. Just the fact he /she or whatever does not read romans or laviticus. And yet accuses others of picking apart the bible is shameful. We christians have many logs in our eyes. The difference is we see ours and with the spirit of the lord- face each one day by day through grace of Jesus. If you do not acknowledge the truth of the whole bible and acknowledge your own sin you will be in hell. Not our problem. yours. We in faith believe we are going to heaven. 4:22pm I read many blogs just not those like oshivishi many tried to reach him or her---it is not worth the argument. They like her/him do not care anything about what we are and what we are about. They are here to read our blogs and recieve prayer. Keep praying and less reading of thier posts.:-)
Try and demonize me all you want, you can't change that Christians hold all same ideas I have presented here. You are confusing your sect's viewpoint as THE Christian viewpoint when it is not. So no, nothing I've said can 'rob' someone of their true faith, it can only enlighten ones following a false one and lead them to a better faith.
And you ignore that I am the one humble before God - I'm not the one judging others as sinful or not upsurting God's work and presuming I know the details of his Plan. I'm not the one who is obsessed with the darkness and not concentrating on the light as Jesus asked. It does amaze me that those here in their arrogance can't see that it is the fundamentalists that are the ones not right with God.
And yes I've read Romans and 'Laviticus', much of it in the original text. Romans mentions heterosexual followers of the cult of Isis who were 'turned over' by God (as a jailer 'turns over' his prisoners, no choice) to homosexual acts, i.e., the cult had ritualized sexual activities. It would be difficult for a thinking person to see that as a blanket condemnation of homosexuals or homosexuality, there are far to many specific details about the nature of these idolators to generalize that message from what's said.
And 'Laviticus' is about ritually unclean 'abominations', like wearing cloth of different fibers, eating shrimp and bringing dog fetuses into a temple (hey I didn't write them!). This was a restriction on the ancient Hebrews, not Christians, and it was about a very specific ritual act performed in Caanite temples, again not a blanket condemnation of homosexuality. As we saw with Jude, people translate things to say they want them to say - only by going back to the source can you reliable find the truth.
Being gay is just the way some people are as we learn the more we examine God's creation and no more intrinsically sinful than being left-handed even though in the middle ages it was considered sinful. As Jesus made clear sin is based on context not a simple physical act. There are gay people right with God just as there are Roman centaurions, tax collectors, thieves, and fundamentalists - I bet even a few Pharisee-emulating bible thumpers might end up right with God.
And yes, many try and hide from different points of view because they have falsely been lead to believe that questioning a sect's dogma is somehow questioning God, which isn't true at all. To be a Christian all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, period. You don't have to have read a single book of the Bible, you don't have to even have to think Paul is a true disciple (John didn't think he was). This is what so many have realized that you have not - Jesus made it very clear and very simple to turn back to God, it is only the very mortal powerbrokers that see religion as a way to control people that make it seem difficult just to garner power for themselves and keep you under their thumbs.
"Do what's right, don't do what's wrong and let God take care of the rest" is what my dad told me as a child and it really is just that simple. Hurting people is wrong, denying them the things you could easily grant that would make their lives better is wrong. Obsessing about the possible sins of others is wrong. Wrapping yourself in hard-hearted dogma and darkness is wrong. To hurt others now because you think it leads to some future that is 'better' is wrong. And to be right with God is easy - all you have to do is stop being wrong. You can if you just decide to do so. This won't 'rob' you of your faith, it will let you actually find it. If following Jesus's instructions leads you to some sort of tolerable 'eternal life' and that's what you want well then cool, but if it doesn't it still is the right thing to do.
So, Oshtur, if we are all sons of God, why did Jesus call some people (the learned Pharisees who knew a LOT about God, but did not ever accept His love into their souls) children of the devil?
"Perhaps the myth of a gay teen suicide 'holocaust' is irresistible to gay activists because it squares so perfectly with their strategy of embracing victim status to gain sympathy with the general poppulation. That strategy was eloquently stated by homosexual authors Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen:
'...In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector. ...The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable; that is, to jam with shame the self-righteous pride that would ordinarily accompany and reward their antigay belligerence, and to lay the groundwork for the process of conversion by helping straights identify with gays and sympathize with their underdog status."
---Marshell Kirk and Hunter Madsen, "After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear & Hatred of Gays in the 1990's (Doubleday: New York: 1990), p. 183.
Consider this:
IF gays/lesbian/etc. were to get ALL the "rights" and everything they want regarding acceptance of their proclivity --- WOULD THEY TRULY BE MOST HAPPY? I think not because, once the opposition has been stopped - THEY WOULD NOT HAVE ANY BATTLE CRY, NOTHING TO FIGHT AGAINST! That element is what gives them "fire", a cause!
Life is a journey not a destination and then just sit there!
There would be an emptiness because the proclivity is not right and they would have to be faced with that element alone - within themselves.
The thing is, IF they got all they wanted, this would deny "rights" of those who oppose this proclivity and the lack of their shoring up good morals in our society would cause many, many other negative elements to reveal themselves that would be very destructive and general society would turn into chaos.
It is like the big Democrat "win" in our recent elections. In the news reports afterward, the Democrats really don't have a plan about the Iraq war! They yelled loudly before the elections their anti-war rhetoric! Now that the chips are down, they don't have a plan!
Well said 8:40 am. Thank you.
So, Oshtur, if we are all sons of God, why did Jesus call some people (the learned Pharisees who knew a LOT about God, but did not ever accept His love into their souls) children of the devil?
Because like so many here they were rule following scripture thumpers who had hardened hearts, thought their interpretation of scripture was the only correct one, and that they had a lock on what God's intent and plans were, i.e. they were arrogant and not humble before Him.
And it was these sanctimonious people who thought themselves the holder of the rules presenting themselves as holy and righteous that Jesus identified as 'children of the devil' - you really can't seen the parallel with the current crop fundamentalists sects such as this blog is written for?
Consider this:
IF gays/lesbian/etc. were to get ALL the "rights" and everything they want regarding acceptance of their proclivity --- WOULD THEY TRULY BE MOST HAPPY? I think not because, once the opposition has been stopped - THEY WOULD NOT HAVE ANY BATTLE CRY, NOTHING TO FIGHT AGAINST! That element is what gives them "fire", a cause!
Irony! This is the fundamentalist strategy. As anyone who actually lives in Seattle knows, acceptance breeds conformity. There is no more 'gay ghetto', the local gay paper continually carries letters from gay activists complaining about its death and how hard it is to get the gays in town to take a stand for gay rights.
If gays had equal rights then they would just be, well, equal citizens. Their complaints would largely evaporate just as the African American ones did after the acknowledgment of equal rights in the 1960's and 70's.
But no, you are obsessed with denying equal rights to a group that is 2% of the general population, first trying to rationalize how a change of 1 out of 50 will totally destroy the world as 'we know it' and then when that fails predicting that even if you did the loving and compassionate thing 'they' wouldn't appreciate it. ('they' never are appreciative, are they?)
Again, what kind of mind falls for that kind of grade school level deception anymore?
It is to bad that Oshtur died! We will miss him. May he truly rest in peace.
:o)
That you are incapable of substantive reply should be a warning sign to any thinking individual that there is a possibility they are on the wrong side of the issue.
Thinking is really a very good thing to practice - don't be afraid, its just one thought after another.
spirit of Oshtur, we are not incapable of a "substantive reply", we just have nothing more to say to you. you are determined to believe what you want and we are determined to believe what we want - to continue is a waste of "thinking". the truth will be known, one day!
spirit of Oshtur, we are not incapable of a "substantive reply", we just have nothing more to say to you.
"we are"? So all you anonymous posters have some sort of club and have elected a representative? Or is this just another illustration of how people not having the courtesy AND courage to at least own their own posts with a consistent handle just muddy the discussionary waters?
Saying that that truth is based on 'determination' and not facts indicates a flaw in your basic mentation. That you have no rational basis for your opinions and can not justify them with anything more than 'its this way because I say so' indicates that we have different ideas of that 'thinking' and 'thought' involve.
What we should both be able to agree on is that something you can't defend really shouldn't be forced onto other free citizens. You have a right to believe whatever you want, but without some objective rationalization you shouldn't be trying to force others to act as if you actually were right.
spirit of Oshtur,
Since this blog is from a Christian base, most anonymous posters will be Christians. I can recognize when a posting is from a Christian brother/sister, I don't need to know a specific "handle" from any of them.
That you like to participate in this blog, you must like the "fellowship" with the various Christian viewpoints that discuss here.
Since this blog is from a Christian base, most anonymous posters will be Christians. I can recognize when a posting is from a Christian brother/sister, I don't need to know a specific "handle" from any of them.
Of course, because as 'anonymous' said, they aren't concerned with truth they are only concerned with 'determination'. Since the facts presented are unimportant to you I can see why having messages that say different things about the same subject don't upset you - you bleep over those conflicts as unimportant.
Vishanti I would be careful in insulting the intelligence of others. That opens you up for review and critique.
I know you claim to have a Masters Degree. I have way more than that. You are not as smart as you like to believe and you are not fooling anyone.
My handle?
A different anonymous
Vishanti I would be careful in insulting the intelligence of others. That opens you up for review and critique.
When did I insult anyone's intelligence? I pointed out that that anonymous has different discussionary priorities, how could you confuse that with a comment on intelligence? Seems your 'way more' degree hasn't helped you as much as you arrogantly think.
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