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A Time For Change
The Bible, which some are now saying is archaic and does not speak to today’s culture, is not only relevant to today’s culture in it’s principles for life, but in its ancient wisdom as well.
A favored verse, written thousands of years ago says, “To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1).
A well-known lawyer from Seattle called me a couple of days ago encouraging me to encourage you to press forward in the battle for the culture. He said people of faith should not feel that the traditional, Biblical marriage issue is settled. He said even now there are a number of strategies under way to redefine marriage and that the close decision by the Supreme Court (5-4)* would be a part of those strategies.
It is a time for change.
We must replace the judicial activists with qualified people who will rule according to the law (as five of the Supreme Court justices did) not according to their personal agenda.
If you are a registered voter in Washington State, you can make those changes in the primary election in September.
We must also elect men and women who will support the values of people of faith to our legislature.
“There is a time …” and this is the time for change.
_________________
Gary Randall
President
Faith & Freedom
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* Washington Supreme Court DOMA Decision was a 5-4 majority. Justice Barbara Madsen wrote the opinion and was joined by Chief Justice Gerry Alexander and Justice Charles Johnson. Justices James Johnson and Richard Sanders joined the majority in a separate concurrence. Justices Bobbe Bridge, Mary Fairhurst, Susan Owens and Tom Chambers dissented.
23 Comments:
The recent court decision in favor of DOMA has merely slowed down the advancement of the homosexual agenda. This is not the time to heave a sigh of relief, but instead, we must take this window of opportunity and step up our battle plan. The Supreme Court primary election in September is crucial. We must remove from office those justices who failed to uphold marriage in the DOMA case and support the candidates who have stepped out to challenge them. We must work to remove Susan Owens and Tom Chambers before they have another opportunity to vote on this issue.
I agree, but we must not forget that Gerry Alexander has not been a friend to our cause. He may have voted to uphold DOMA, but he also voted in favor of parental rights for non custodial lesbian parents and voted to use tax payer money to provide benefits for homosexual couples. 1 out of 3 doesnt make him a good supreme court justice.
Good call. Alexander should be shown the door as well. If we are to uphold traditional marriage in this state, we must have solid judicial representation.
Two days ago, I watched a televised panel discussion about this decision. It was heavily stacked with homosexuals and their supporters; there were only two people there who defended traditional marriage. They carefully avoided calling attention to the fact that it is impossible for both "parents" in a homosexual family to be genetically related to the children. The emphasis was upon scientific "advances" that make it possible for children to be produced, despite this inability by the two "parents" of the same gender to contribute to said children's gene pool. I think we can expect to see much more of this downplaying of the reality of that crucial distinction.
The panel was at Puget Sound College, and sponsored by the State Bar Association and a library association. Working through the library system seems to be a common element in the promotion of same sex marriage throughout the nation.
This is no time for us to sit on our laurels. We must be sure our legislators know that we, the people, will not stand for this, and also to get rid of the judicial activists who place their personal social agendas ahead of the will of the people.
Well said, Pam! When talking about homosexual marriage, we need to always point out that a same-sex couple cannot both be genetically related to their children. That's a powerful message and argument against allowing them to marry.
Of course, marriage should be restricted to people who can and will produce genetic children together. That's why I hope the Faith & Freedom Network picks up the cause to restrict marriage only to those couples.
In addition to same-sex couples, the following people should not be able to marry: people who are sterile or otherwise shown not able to reproduce, people who have undergone a vasectomy or hysterectomy, post-menopausal women, people who choose to adopt, divorced people with children (because the new spouse would not be genetically related), people who want to marry but not have children, etc.
None of these people can be genetically related to their children and are therefore not worthy of traditional marriage.
Will you join me in taking up this cause?
Dear "anonymous" (the second): Heterosexual unions need not actually produce children in order to convey societal encouragement of the only relationships that are able to do so. Homosexual unions can NEVER produce children genetically related to both parents. And it's a well proven fact that when one parent is not related to the child, there's a higher incidence of.....well let's just say "problems"....and leave it at that.
Anonymous #2: I think your cause is a bit different than what this blog is about. Same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry-end of story. The fact is they cannot reproduce children together of the same genetic string. Just like those people who get divorced and have a child. But I do not think or support preventing people of different sexes of getting married should even be sought after.
The heterosexual union in and of itself is enough in my opinion to have a "showing" of a nuclear family consisting of two parents. This should show in our society and support for having sound relationships that children can look up to.
I'm a divorced man and my present wife and I had children and I firmly believe we are a great example of what can happen in our society of bringing two sets of families together and making examples that others can follow, especially children being able to say, "Look, those kids got new parents and they are happy, maybe I can too." Instead of being left without two parents or being adopted by homosexuals.
Pam... if I understand correctly, marriage is only for two people who can procreate when we're talking about homosexuals, but when we're talking about heterosexuals, the procreation standard no longer applies.
It seems you've chosen the only thing two people of the same sex cannot do and made it the ultimate and single standard for marriage, but applied it only to homosexuals.
We go in circles, but as "Anonymous" above put it so succintly for your side: "Same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry-end of story." It just is.
Don't define marriage by what it is NOT (for gays), but not for what it IS (the best way for two people who love and are committed to each other to protect each other and their children).
Good parenting is not determined by sexual orientation or gender or biological connections or race. This single most important thing any person or people can do for children is to love them unconditionally and to give them support (shelter, access to doctors, financial support, arrangements in case of the loss of parent(s)).
An opposite-sex couple who does not show their children love is not superior to a same-sex couple who does. The opposite is also true.
I think you believe that by banning same-sex marriage, you will create more opposite-sex marriages. The truth is, the number of heterosexuals vs. homosexuals is constant in all societies, whether we are tolerated or oppressed, accepted or tortured.
Gays and lesbians will continue to love each other and form families, as will our straight counterparts. We will care for each other in sickness, health and as we near death, as you will. We will raise our children the best we can, as you do. The only difference is our families and our children remain in legal limbo, where yours are legally protected. This injustice harms us all, but especially the hundreds of thousands of children in same-sex homes around the country.
Same-sex marriage takes nothing away from you or your children. But it's ultimately important for those of us for whom opposite-sex attraction and love is not an option. I know it is not an option, because I spent 15 years in Christian groups trying and only hurting myself -- and women -- in the process.
I understand that your religious convictions tell you otherwise, that homosexuality and same-sex marriage is wrong and can be "cured." But, will you do me one favor before you adamantly refuse to support same-sex families? Will you challenge your beliefs by seeking out non-partisan information? Will you approach a gay person in your community or workplace and ask them questions about "why" they are gay, who they love? Will you try to get to know one same-sex family before you try to legislate us out of existence?
If you try all of that and come to the same conclusion, you can be assured that your convictions are true and strong. You have nothing to lose.
If anyone would like to have a friendly conversation about this via e-mail, you can reach me at babcock_tony@yahoo.com.
These posts seem to be cutting to the chase, which I believe is as follows:
These guys really oppose gay marriage because they oppose being gay, period. Mostly because of the 'ick' factor. They think its deviant and a matter of choice. Even if some acknowledge it's genetic, they think gays can and should choose to abstain.
Their logical arguments are all specious and easily debunked, so they fall on the religous objection. It's very convenient for them that God has the same 'ick' reaction so that they can feel justified in their discrimination. It's always nice to have God on your side.
I have to admit that I had the same 'ick' feeling when I first heard of gay marriage. I think most people had this reaction, it just wasn't something we had thought much about. It didn't take long for logical thought to win out and for me to realize that my initial reaction was just that.
For me it was similar to the first time I saw in inter-racial couple. I grew up 50+ years ago in small bigotted town and initially inter-racial marriage seemed wrong to me.
My point is that, in time, equality and fairness will win out. The false arguments against gay marriage will fall aside, as will the religious opposition. You can only get away with painting God as a bigot for a little while.
So while you folks can revel in this little victory, you had better continue stacking the courts with conservative activist judges because the population is becoming more enlightened and as they do, you won't like the way they vote!
Actually, Dr. Joseph Fuiten was quoted in the paper as saying that only 35% of the WA population supports gay marriage.
babcock_tony I believe that same sex attraction is probably something most homosexuals would like to be without if they knew how. I suspect it is very powerful. I suspect you have had a lot of pain in your life. I know you said that you "spent 15 years in Christian groups trying". But there are people who successfully come out of the lifestyle. I imagine it can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. I had a hard time just not having premarital sex even after I became a Christian (no problem now) Part of that was my familial background and damage done growing up--part of it was that I had fed my lusts for years--and I didn't know how to make good choices to keep myself from getting in situtations where I would succumb. If some of the same people were still in my life, I wouldn't have been able to do it (I would have chosen them over God) So I started learning to make better choices--and let God do his work in me. And it was worth it. It is a much better life. But I needed His help and not just human effort and "religion".
"Religion" is taking rules and trying to push them into me from the outside. Knowing Christ and the Holy Spirit makes changes on the inside and it pushes outward because the Holy Spirit is alive and active in someone. That is how some people make dramatic changes in them. Some people call that "relationship" with Jesus which is accomplished through a genuine new birth experience, prayer, and bible reading.
I don't believe that we can't choose who we love. That is what people say when they are having extra-marital affairs or what women say when they keep choosing batterers to love. I think the later category is because of their background and their inability to make good choices in that area (because of their background). (please don't read any condemnation into that).
I am so impressed with your 15 year effort. I'm sure God was too. He knows how hard it is.
I have known and worked with and loved gays. I grieve for them because I think there is a better way just like there was a better, happier and healthier way for me. I still believe it is wrong and harmful.
Anonymous at 5:18 pm -- Thank you for your kind and thoughtful message above. I appreciate your fairness, empathy, and insight.
I agree with you that the vast majority of us who are gay had a point in our lives when we wanted to change our same-sex attractions. But the big question here is why? The answer is that no one wants to live in a society where we are condemned for who we are. No one wants to lose the love of our families and friends. No one wants to be viewed as a pariah. But that is the bitter reality for gays today.
My preacher taught me that homosexuals want to molest children. That we are sexual perverts intent on harming God. That we only cared about sex. If you were young and impressionable and a preacher you respected told you this, you would do anything to change, too.
But if God wanted me to change, why didn't he help me change? And why didn't I feel like molesting children if that's what I was? And why did I seek fulfillment and love that coupledom can bring if all I wanted was sex? And why did I feel I loved God if all I wanted to do was harm him, as my preacher claimed?
I slowly came to realize that my preacher was wrong. If God and I together with full commitment couldn’t change my sexual orientation over 15 years, maybe God created me AND loved me just the way I was. God would not make me a human being, capable of love and commitment and the happiness it brings forth, only to demand that I never seek it out, while my neighbors do.
God is never wrong, but preachers, who are human, often are in interpreting His will and desires for us. Evidence that in the fact that so many religious institutions disagree with each other about this issue and so many others. And so many biblical “facts” preached in the past seem so archaic and downright ridiculous today.
I put my whole struggle with myself into a few paragraphs, but we're talking about years to reverse everything I learned. I went from hating myself to cautiously accepting myself, to loving myself unconditionally as I am, as God does. To understate it: it was tough stuff.
With all due respect, you cannot compare avoiding pre-marital sex to homosexuality. Avoiding pre-marital sex involves only avoiding a behavior for (usually) a short time, knowing one day it will come.
But avoiding pre-marital sex doesn’t entail changing one’s *attractions* from one gender to another. Avoiding sex with your girlfriend didn’t mean you had to stop being attracted to her and all women forever. Such an attempt would have likely caused you to burst at some point. That is precisely what happened for me, with genders reversed.
I realize that you can choose who you love, but that is different from changing your sexual orientation: You could choose not to marry a batterer, or an abuser. But if all women were batterers and abusers, could you then move on to men? Of course not!
There is so much evidence out there that God has given us so much diversity. When we see someone with eyes who cannot see, we don’t condemn them as evil. When we encounter someone who writes with his left hand when he has a right hand, we don’t label them witches (like we did at one time), we just know that that’s how some people are.
But sex and sexuality are so different, especially in regards to religion. Gays know that the bodies of men and women were “designed” for each other, but that does not change our sexual orientation inside, nor does it explain it. It seems God did not always match up eyes with seeing, nor sexual orientation with physical gender.
So why, when we see homosexuals trying to find love, commitment and happiness with the cards they've been dealt, do we so relentlessly condemn them? This is something I ask you to ask yourself. And this is something that causes me and other homosexuals pain every single day of our lives with the laws we pass and with the family and friends who leave our circles.
Today, I couldn’t imagine changing myself to straight even if I could. I’m 11 years into a lifelong, committed, monogamous relationship with my soulmate and my best friend. I could count my sexual partners on one finger. My partner and I have built a life of love and support for each other. We’ll be there for each other until the very end and beyond, no matter what laws are passed or who chooses to love and support us. Why would I give that up? If you have that in your life, you know what I am talking about.
We are committed to the classic arrangement we call "marriage." We are a family. We protect each other. We contribute to society. We just hope for understanding from the world one day soon. I hope this conversation is a start.
Babcock_tony
Oh no Babcock_tony, I wasn't trying to say that giving up premarital sex was the same as giving up homosexuality. I believe it would be harder to give up homosexuality especially given how hard it was for me to give up something as seemingly simple as premarital sex. Others may have had no problem but for me it was really hard. I have been celibate for 10 years now.
When I first became a Christian, I sinned big. I was so devastated and ashamed. I said to a pastor "I hurt God" whom I loved. She said in love "no you hurt yourself". I am saddened you were told you were hurting God.
I guess it boils down to whether you believe the bible. I know you will disagree with me and that is ok. There was a time when I also concluded that that the bible was archaic and "downright ridiculous". I decided that premarital sex was forbidden back when the bible was written because they didn't have birth control then. That makes me chuckle now. And really I was just trying to justify some of my wrong doing (oh I've done worse than just premarital sex).
But now I believe the Bible is timeless. While society changes, the human makeup doesn't. God created us and the bible is meant to be like an owners manual. He loves us and wants what is best for us. It is easy for me to believe the bible because some of the freakiest things in there have proven themselves true. And the more I live by its principles the healthier and happier I am. It is like living in a smokey and dark room, then finding a back door (biblical principles and the power of Christ to change me from within) to walk through into the sunlight, fresh air and singing birds. There were things I didn't want to give up and undoing some of the damage done by life was very painful. But now I see it as being like a kid who doesn't want to stop playing with their toys in the backyard since it is so fun, even though my parents want to take me to Disneyland. I only know the fun of the toys and can't comprehend Disneyland because I've never seen anything like it. I've only ever known the toys in my back yard.
I know some churches are saying homosexuality is ok. I was raised in one of them (Episcopal Church). The truth is, I saw very little Christianity in there and I was terrified of churches as an adult. I had no idea who Jesus was which is the core of Christianity--yet I had no idea who he was. I went to church because I was raised to. That is what many call "religion" and it often is just a shell of Christianity. I lived the life of what people refer to as a "weekend Christian". I didn't really know that wasn't Christianity and thought people who actually read their bible and loved Jesus were those "other" people who were weak and not as cool as me. (please note that I have met some wonderful Christians in the Episcopal church -- it isn't completely devoid of genuine Christians)
I have found that Preachers who say homosexuality is ok, don't know the bible very well. I've heard some of them misquote it and jumble verses and their location. Or they do know the bible but don't like what it says. But that isn't really an option for the Christian to pick and choose what we want it to say.
People keep pointing to Leviticus saying those laws are ridiculous. Some of them are. Some pertained to society which changes. Moral laws, however, don't change. And the bible says more about homosexuality than just Leviticus. Romans is an example.
I don't know why you weren't changed when you tried. I don't know why I am free of anxiety since becoming a Christian, while the Sr. pastor at my church still struggles with it.
But I did find a story of a man like you. He tried and tried in church to change. Then he gave up and gave in. Then he tried again and was free of the lifestyle. His change went much farther and deeper than just changing sexual orientation. He had to go to some root causes. The story can be found at :http://www.exodus.to/content/view/245/149/
I don't share that to try and change you. That is not my job and you said you wouldn't want to now. I just like information and stories, even if I don't agree with them, and thought maybe you would to.
God bless you Tony. I've enjoyed chatting with you.
Good morning, Anonymous at 7:10 pm (I still don’t know your name). Thank you for your reply.
First of all, thank you for sharing information about your past sins and how you’ve overcome them and are now leading a clean life. That must fill you with immense satisfaction.
It’s painful that you see me as living a life of sin, though. I know you don’t really know me, so you are basing that judgment on the fact that I am a homosexual. And more than that: That I am a homosexual in a lifetime loving relationship.
As you say, it all depends on whether you believe the Bible. But later you mention that you only believe the “moral laws” never change, while the ones that pertain to society can change. And I guess that’s precisely my point: Christians who condemn me can always find a justification for which biblical laws they want me to follow. How do you know which laws are moral and which are simply societal and can be ignored? In truth, you don’t.
The Bible was selectively used in this way to argue both sides near the end of slavery, when women were fighting for the right to vote, and when interracial couples were fighting for their right to marry. Either the Bible is absolute, or it’s not. You say it is, but it’s not.
I read your story at the Exodus web site, and believe me, I’ve read many of them. Changing one’s behavior (avoiding sex with people of the same gender) is not the same as changing one’s orientation (which gender you are attracted to). As I said before, with enough shame – and believe me, it piles up on gay people – anyone can change their behavior.
Sure, I could have gone through the motions to marry a woman. But I wouldn’t have truly been *in love* with her. I wouldn’t have truly been attracted to her. How unfair to the woman! Who would support a marriage like that?
Here are two people who say they are making that work:
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_4138478
This man doesn’t even claim to have changed his orientation, but he believes God wants him to marry anyway. While they say they accept this arrangement, the whole thing – from sex to intimacy – is such a struggle for them. It shouldn’t be.
I’m sad for this man because he obviously feels overwhelmingly compelled to be straight because of what religion taught him and he is going through a lot to make it work. I know they truly love each other – that’s obvious – but it’s also obvious that they are not really sexually attracted to each other. How entirely sad. I suspect this will cause them pain for the rest of their lives.
For each of these “ex-gay” stories, you can find hundreds of ex-ex-gays who were tormented and psychologically by the whole ordeal of trying to change. They have to make the long journey of being disgusted with themselves to rejoicing in who they are. In fact, the original founders of Exodus eventually fell in love and left the organization.
As I said before, I don’t think God made me gay only to live a life without true love and companionship. Or to struggle through a relationship that my soul tells me I don’t really want. God is much more compassionate than that.
It seems it all comes down to this: How did God make us? Why did he make us this way? What part(s) of the Bible are true? Who are the true Christians? What does God want for us? We can all read the Bible and come up with our own answers, but the answers are not all there. We have to also look around us and inside us, and the answers are never all there, either.
When you see two men or women, in love, raising children with unconditional love and support, sharing in their families and communities, helping others, committing to each other forever, and praising God and living a life through Him – is it really fair to tell them that God does not want this happiness and joy for them, while he does want it for their heterosexual neighbors? I have a hard time believing that God is not rejoicing in my happiness as I am.
Take care, anonymous…
anonymous wrote: "It seems you've chosen the only thing two people of the same sex cannot do and made it the ultimate and single standard for marriage, but applied it only to homosexuals."
"We go in circles, but as "Anonymous" above put it so succintly for your side: "Same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry-end of story." It just is."
"Don't define marriage by what it is NOT (for gays), but not for what it IS (the best way for two people who love and are committed to each other to protect each other and their children)."
Actually, I define marriage exactly as Jesus did. Between one man and one woman. I do not need to talk to homosexuals about it, nor do I need to allow the topic to be shifted from the fundamental definition of a family (one man and one woman producing children genetically related to both parents) to a legal redefinition based upon "love" which cannot possibly be the real attraction. If it were, then the attraction would not be restricted to members of one's own gender.
Homosexuality is a physical attraction. Heterosexuality can also be a physical attraction, but any way you look at it, only heterosexuals can, together, procreate.
That is the basis for the Supreme court's decision and it's also the logical basis upon which traditional marriage has been established in all societies.
I don't need to talk to more homosexuals about "why" they are homosexual or who they love. You assume much when you think I don't ever do so. Homosexuals would have us believe they are born that way and cannot change. The Bible teaches otherwise, and factual, personal testimonials prove it.
Society cannot accept this, and that is the issue. It is not solely a "Christian" matter.
Pam, I am compelled to comment here. You have crafted a simplistic argument that most academic theologians and healthcare professionals (every major psychological and medical association) disagree with. To say that same-sex couples should not be allowed to marry - end of story" is the adult version of putting your fingers in your ears and singing to drown out the facts. I am sure you will never change, Pam. It is also clear that you are blatantly ignorant about the overwhelming facts in support of same-sex marriage. The bottom line is, Pam, that many unbiased people who educate themselves about the Bible, about homosexuality, about the children of gay families and about the realities of this very complex issue change from being unsure about or against same sex marriage to supporting same sex marriage. The same can be said about the overall acceptance of homosexuality in general. The opposite cannot be said, however. Those who seek to find all of the facts rarely, if ever change, from supporting same-sex marriage to opposing it. Look at the momentum of every western (and eastern) society. Look at the opinion polls. Look at the evolution of society from the 60's until now. The truth is that as more and more is known about homosexuality, gay couples and gay parenting, the more people are open and accepting of it. It isn't some huge gay conspiracy at work. It is the truth at work. Go ahead and cloak yourself in the bible as so many people have done in the past. Once same-sex marriage comes to all free nations (its alreay in many), you'll find something new to fear and another bible verse to misuse. Meanwhile, true Christians have dug deeper and deeper into the issue and have begun speaking out in favor of Gays and Lesbians. No, they're not the fallen and un-godly. They're the ones open enough to challenge their own demons, examine the facts and open their hearts.
With regard to your comments on the basis of the Supreme Court's decision, I have to assume you haven't read the entire set of opinions. If you had, you would realize that the majority position is far more the result of "activits" judges than the opinions written by the dissenters. Read it Pam. All of it. And then read the Washington State constitution. You'll find that the ruling has little basis in constitutional law, and effectively remands the responsibility back to the legistlature. Or, you could just save yourself the hassle and stick with "It just is...."
-"A new anonymous"
tony I don't believe God made you gay. I believe it is a result of life and damage done in the formative years.
Even if you are genetically prone towards homosexuality, its still not right. I don't say that to be unkind or condemning. It would be much easier for me go along with it espescially since you seem to be such a nice man.
Most would say I am genetically prone towards alcoholsim. But it isn't in my best interest to drink. And I have struggled with it. Anyone who hasn't can't even begin to comprehend how difficult it is to stop. While people want to call it a disease and say it is genetic, the reality is it is most often a flawed personality (like a compulsive one)caused by harm caused while growing up. Alcoholism is a symptom--not a root cause. Please allow me to respectfully say that I believe the same about homosexuality.
If only 10% of homosexuals marry who have the option to in their state, is marriage really the issue? Or is it to be accepted? There are other ways to accomplish that.
"In fact, the original founders of Exodus eventually fell in love and left the organization."
That is not true. One left. I don't know if he "fell in love".
"he believes God wants him to marry anyway"
He was already married--God wanted him to honor his vows made before Him.
"But later you mention that you only believe the “moral laws” never change, while the ones that pertain to society can change"
That is not what the anonymous said.
According to Exodus, they have about a 30% to 35% success rate which they say is about the same as Alcoholic's Anonymous.
"Look at the evolution of society from the 60's until now. "
Are you kidding me? Are you saying it is a good thing? Drugs, pedophiles, baby murders, teenage mothers, kids killing kids like Columbine, child pornography............
"You'll find that the ruling has little basis in constitutional law, "
I don't think you understand the law. The constitutional aspect determines what test to apply to the law or Defense of Marriage Act. What you probably disagree with is the test they applied. The state's lawmakers were within their right to legislate as they did.
Hi, Anonymous at 9:06 am...
I know many people don't believe that you are born gay, but typically, those are people who are not gay (like yourself, I'm assuming) and who haven't had to battle and examine their sexual feelings all their lives. What characteristics of humans are uniform across the board? I can’t think of any. We vary in skin color, hair color, abilities, heights, weights, health, etc. Not even gender is absolute among humans (some people are born with “parts” of both genders). We know our sexual drives are innate, why shouldn’t that vary among us, too?
If one chooses his homosexuality, it must also be that one chooses his heterosexuality, too. When did you choose yours? Could you switch to homosexuality if the legal benefits were better? What if heterosexuals faced death by hanging as they do in some countries? Could you change? Of course you couldn’t.
Please understand I'm not asking "could you have sex with a person of the same sex?" -- that's a behavior. I'm asking, can you change the sexual attraction toward the opposite sex you feel and direct it toward members of the same-sex if that were considered “normal”? (That's your sexual orientation.) Of course, you could not. That's precisely how I feel, too.
Why are there gay people in Iran, where they can be hung publicly for being together? Why are there gay people in Nepal, Ethiopia, Cuba – all places where gays face oppression and death? We don’t choose our sexual orientation. We deal with it even in the face of immense oppression and death. Why? Because the desire for love and companionship in life is so strong, and when we get it, it brings us immense joy – gays and straights alike.
I know what you are saying when you compare homosexuality to alcoholism, but I do take offense when people make such comparisons. They are not comparable. Accepting yourself as gay means you learn to love yourself as you are and you free to find love and companionship, something nearly all heterosexuals do and is clearly beneficial to one's health. "Accepting" your alcoholism would lead to destruction of your body and health as well as your relationships with those around you. That is not beneficial. All national health organizations agree that homosexuals should accept themselves for who they are, should not try to "change," and should seek love and companionship for their own well-being.
Finally, why should whether one chooses his sexual orientation really matter with marriage or any other law? It's obvious that there is a minority of us who fall in love with members of the same-sex -- whatever the reasons. We do not want to right to marry anyone (related people, children, animals, appliances, multiple people, etc.) We just want to marry the one person we love. If the government or people decide that Christian parenting is harmful – something that is obviously a choice – should we be allowed to ban Christians from marrying? Republicans? Liberals? Of course not!
Regarding your last comment about us being a minority: An injustice against even 1 person is still an injustice we should resolve. Why should we ignore injustices that affect only a minority of our population? Would you want an injustice against you resolved if you were only part of the 1% facing it? Of course you would! Why should it be any different for me?
If the marriage rate among heterosexuals fell below 10%, should heterosexuals lose the right to marry because so few of them want to? I'm not sure I understand your comment or where you got that percentage. More than 8,000 gay couples have married in Massachusetts. I wouldn’t care if that number were 100,000 or 10 – as long as homosexuals get the same choice to marry as you do.
Why shouldn’t I want to be accepted? Do you want to be accepted? How would you feel if people disliked, disrespected, tormented and passed laws against you because of a trait you possessed or chose? Say, for example, your religion? Your skin color? Your height? Your veteran status? Your disability? Your children? The day you stop wanting acceptance in your society, I'll stop, too. I just want to live my life and protect my spouse and family – just like you do and in the same way. I want to be free from discrimination and judgments. I don’t want to lose my job because I’m gay.
And, finally ... sure, there are ways to accomplish some of the protections of marriage through other means -- typically through thousands of dollars in legal fees (my partner and I spent $5,000 – a marriage license is a few bucks), but NOT ALL of them. Why should I have to seek "other ways to accomplish that" when you do not?
We live in the United States of America – the greatest country in the world. One of the greatest things about this country is that we value equality and liberty for all of our citizens – even those we disagree with or do not like. We do not expand rights where it can harm others (for example, no one should be able to have sex with minors, we should not have a right to murder someone else). But I’m a grown man and able to know who I want to spend the rest of my life with.
The separation of church and state protects our religious freedoms. If your religious beliefs dictate that you should not marry a person of the same sex (or divorce, or have premarital sex), then you can choose not to. But your religious beliefs should not dictate that I should not marry a person of the same sex. The moment one religious group is allowed to treat those they disapprove of unequally, they leave themselves open to that same treatment when they lose power or majority status.
I’ll die protecting your freedom to practice or not practice your religion – and I mean that – and all I ask is the same from you and my religious or non-religious beliefs. I disagree with you on God’s plan for me – and that’s OK – but don’t judge me here on earth by making me jump through hoops to protect my family or denying me the peace of living my life. Treat me like you treat your own. Allow me the protections under the law that you give your own. I make my own choices, and I’ll face God’s judgment when I die, as we each will.
Thanks for listening,
Babcock_tony@yahoo.com
Tony I don't have the time to read your post carefully enough to give it the thoughtful response that it warrants.
But can we agree to disagree for now? I'm not sure this is the best place to talk because it is easy to misconstrue words and intent.
Please know that I think you are a nice and very likable man. Please also know that I am fully aware that you are just as loved and valued and cherished by God (and me)as I am.
Hello again, Anonymous at 12:38 pm. Of course, we can agree to disagree -- and it has been nice corresponding with you.
I thank you for your openness and fairness and sharing your thoughts and opinions with me. It's refreshing to discuss this topic without rhetoric and insults.
You are kind, and I thank you for it. You seem to be a true Christian.
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