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Referendum 65 Running Behind
Those of you living in Washington State, I’m sure you have seen the newspaper articles quoting Tim Eyman regarding Referendum 65.
We are running way behind where we should be in numbers of names gathered on the petition forms.
Frankly, I was surprised when I read the newspaper. Having spoken to thousands of people across Washington State who feel very strongly about the special rights for gays issue, I thought there would have been more names turned in by now.
Please make every effort to get your petition forms completed and mailed in. There is still time to get more forms and circulate them, but we must move quickly.
We can do this, but we must act now.
Gary Randall
President
Faith & Freedom
Click here to download Referendum 65 Petition Forms
55 Comments:
Women aren't asking for 'special' rights when they ask for equal pay for equal work. People of color aren't asking for 'special' rights when they ask not to be victims of discrimination on the job or with regard to housing. The handicapped are not asking for 'special' rights when they ask for reasonable accomodation to access their jobs, schools and other locations.
If the rights of one group are in danger, so are the rights of all. Neimoller's comments about 'first they came for the communists, and I wasn't a communist, so I didn't speak up', etc., is as true today as it was 50 years ago. If you do not vigorously protect the rights of the minority, the rights of the majority are in jeopardy.
Some may not like the idea of equal rights for homosexuals, but millions more approve of equal rights for everyone. That is why 65 is taking a dive.
In re: K. Isaacson's comments, there are few hispanics, blacks, whites, men, women, handicapped, or even AIDS patients who selectively "define" themselves by their behaviors as those in the homosexual, bisexual and "transgendered" lifestyle do. How can employers and educators and real estate sellers even know if the person they are dealing with is a member of this proposed and new "protected class?"
Let's hope that those gathering signatures redouble their efforts and get the job done.
This issue has been used to hurt the church , and the lack of support by the church shows the real problem .The church in the United States . Schools have long been teaching relativity , school health clinics are becomming more common . Common virtues such as honesty , perseverance , love , compassion are taught in relative terms , one view is only one view , and truth is a personal viewpoint . Sex out of marriage or in marriage are just choices , one means being prepared with condoms , one means birth control or children . The choices receive equal validity . That is the real issue ...........public Schools have hijacked right and wrong , not homosexuals . They are just dealing with their issues and problems .
Sexual Preferences just appears more visual to those of us with a traditional Belief System because people actually celebrate sexual choices . No one celebrates divorce or other issues that the bible clearly states as wrong . Therefore it appears more problematic .
In the real battle of the culture war its a blimp , divorce , sexual partners without any societal condemnation is where the Church should have been stepping up to the plate , drugs being dealt at the playgrounds , church based community groups should have been organized and chaperoned our playgrounds .. I don't know , I am just a Dad .. . I feel more guilty about not knowing how to stop our kids from growing up in a world where sexuality , drug use , and single parent homes is the norm then this issue .
Homosexuals are just people like anyone , the problem is not their sexuality , its the cultures celbration of something that is clearly stated as a wrong thing to do in the Bible , the
examples of the bible and doctrines as beingg looked upon as intolerant instead of a way to keep us safe , provide hope in time of despair , and a guide book to allow everyone in the long run to live in a diverse and kinder world . My opinion in this issue is that it causes so many of us to get riled up , and afterwards , win or loose the vote on this , the church goes back to sleeping and allowing our institutions to be hi jacked by fundamental secular extremists. In the long run the homosexuals will be treated harsher because of the lost of our Judeo Christian base as a cultural support in this country , we all will suffer.
Our youth will be walking with no compass . God help us all .
The legislation protects ALL sexual orientations, it doesn't give any 'special rights' but just says that sexual orientation is irrelevant in the public areas of housing, employment, accommodation and finance. That's all.
And to the prior commentor *IF* being gay were some sort of seductive 'vice' he might have a point. But the relative percentage of the population that is gay is remarkably solid regardless of acceptance or persecution. To advocate persecution for 'our youth' makes as much sense as doing so because of all those sinister left handed people.
Gay people will always exist so the question is do we persecute them or give them all the tools for having safe happy productive lives that the majority have?
Vishanti ,
Your comments sound like more as talking points . According to most statistics that people use for seeing how groups of people live in our culture , homosexuals have a higher median income , better jobs then the average American .
I do not see homosexuals being persecuted as African Americans , Hispanics and other groups have , if you mean derogatory statements , yes that is true , but I suggest you listen to Air America, listen to most Left wing groups who promote a view of a theocracy taking over America , most newspapers label anyone with a traditional view point as a religious right member, pigeon holing anything that smells of a traditional viewpoint as intolerant , bigot , some kind of religious cult member . The ACLU has a section of their organization dedicated to "tracking " such threats as Promise Keepers , that put Evangelicals in the same group as those who brought down the Twin Towers . There is Gay Curricullum in schools , a few years ago our school district banned a Charlie Brown's Christmas from being presented by a bunch of 5th graders who just wanted their Moms and dads see them in the Play , in fact some of those parents might have been gay . Persecuted ?
Well For sure the best thing to come out of the past 30 years of the homosexual movement is the intolerance shown to gays in certain areas of our communities , they were parts of the community because of the stigma attached to homosexuality that most Americans had no idea existed , or did want to know . Most people are fair minded , and when that was high lighted , it has been drastically reduced , in fact , thanks to a culture that supports freedom and choice , the Judeo Christian Culture remants , those wrongs were changed for the most part . People being discriminated for having homosexual relationships , yeah , sure ... I suggest you read some of the newsletters of the local democratic party in Washing ton State , the state page was selling a picture of a bumper sticker with a fish with the words hypocrit under it . I suggest to you , that there are Christians in this state that would feel discriminated against for that , and I see you not speaking to or encourging that kind of nonsense to stop , all I ever hear is people saying people like Pat Robertson or whomever makes this approriate , with this logic it is like judging people who walk in parades with whips and such and making all homosexuals look as nutso as these folks , should people who are polite and respectful be ridicules for values that do not harm you ? Suffer the criticism even if they are living a life that is respectful of others and their right to be in our community . Homosexuals that I know do not show up with this kind of garments on in the publc square .. And just as Christians should not be lumped in with those that have no respect for others . Perversion being celebrated as diversity . Persectuion , sorry if you feel that way , and if my post made you feel that way I am sorry also for that , but I believe your problem is you see everything based on yourself and have no respect for what others believe , or what kids should be exposed to ..
Marriage in the eyes of the law is essentially a property contract and should be available on an equal basis to any couple. Priest, rabbis, imams should no longer be sanctioned by the state to perform marriages. The only legally valid marriages would be those performed by a judge, mayor or other civil authority. If the then married couple wishes to seek the blessing of their faith then, by all means, trot off to the temple, church, or mosque.
Your comments sound like more as talking points
that's a good thing, right? I mean Randall posts 'talking points' in multi-part threads!
You are wrong on many points:
Your statistics on gay income is dated and was flawed - of course when there were higher levels of persecution only those that had 'made it' could afford to identify themselves. More enclusive studies such as this show that gay couples earn less than men with women spouses. Lesbians have always made below that the median income.
As to your not seeing discrimination why would you if you weren't involved or it wasn't covered in the media? Its not like all your gay friends are going to be telling you their stories, right? Surveys by the city in Seattle have shown high degrees of discrimination here in Washington state. Discrimination exists if you bother to look.
The definition of tolerance is:
"the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with"
Isn't the point of Ref 65 to reserve the 'right' to be intolerant?
The definition of bigotry is:
"intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself"
Again isn't the point of Ref 65 to say that others can be treated as if they were part of a particular religous mindset - that potential employees, renters, customers and the like can be catagorized in these public venues by someone else's religious standards even if they are not their own?
The 'traditional viewpoint' is objectively a bigoted, intolerant viewpoint and it seems odd that people presenting it would take offense at this simple statement of fact.
And then your response wanders off into other issues that shows how this simple bill that just gives the same rights to all citizens has been distorted by those with the 'traditional viewpoint' to be some sort of rorschach test for all of their concerns not even related to the issue and not understanding what 'discrimination' is.
You can say you think homosexuality is sinful, just as someone can say they think some Christians are hypocrites. The difference is that no one is allowed to deny someone housing, employment, public accomodation, or financial services because of their religion no matter how odious or hypocritical they might think it is. You are confusing dislike with intolerance, disagreement with discrimination.
"but I believe your problem is you see everything based on yourself and have no respect for what others believe , or what kids should be exposed to"
How ironic for you to say that since that is what you are doing. I totally respect your right to believe what you want ABOUT YOURSELF! Where the line is drawn is when you start telling others what they are from your religious point of view - you don't have that right. Take me, you might call me a sinner but you would be wrong - because I don't practice your religion - I CAN'T be a sinner. You can call yourself a sinner all you want, do whatever you think you, as a sinner, must do to be right with whoever. But you don't have the right to tell ME I'm a sinner, or treat me as if I were in the public arena. I am a tax paying law-abiding citizen, treat me like that and I will treat you the same.
RG
" there are few hispanics, blacks, whites, men, women, handicapped, or even AIDS patients who selectively "define" themselves by their behaviors as those in the homosexual, bisexual and "transgendered" lifestyle do.
Not true - sexual orientation is not a 'behavior' or a 'lifestyle' - I don't know of any person that defines their own sexual orientation by their behaviors or 'lifestyle' - it is only finger-pointing disapprovers that do that.
"How can employers and educators and real estate sellers even know if the person they are dealing with is a member of this proposed and new "protected class?"
The protected class of 'sexual orientation'? Presumptively everyone already has one, right? The legislation protects ALL sexual orientations, it makes ALL of them irrelevant. A person could claim a different sexual orientation every day of the week and it would make no difference because they will ALL be treated the same.
If it is ok to fire me from my job because I am gay, then why can't I fire you from your job because you are a christian if christianity is against my personal beliefs?
I'm confused.
Referendum 65 says NOTHING about marriage. Why are people pretending it does?
Additionally, IF the concern about this from the Christians is that it opens the door to homosexual marriage and that has to be forbidden because the Bible opposes it, then why don't the Christians just propose a new law that forbids anyone from getting married if they have done ANYTHING that is listed in the Bible as a sexual sin?
I'm guessing it's probably because there are FAR too many Christians out there who are guilty of the same sins.
Interesting comments from homosexuals coming forth .I hope all are reading .
Would it then be discriminatory to tell a teacher that it is not in a code of conduct to cross dress, which I consider a behavior caused by an orienation , abnormal desire to dress as a member of the opposite sex . Would this be considered against the law in a classroom ? I know of an airplane pilot who had no problem doing it , the corporation only cared about how well the Man flew hs/her plane . I suggest the same logic could be used in cross dressin in front of children but with different results . And a request to choose on or the other . Is this considered a bigot to you ?
People of the same sex holding hands going to an Easter Egg Hunt , kissing , is this an orienation or a behavior ? Is this appropriate in your opinion ? No big deal , 5 and 6 year olds there , which maybe never have seen this behavior before , you are choosing for the parent , not by accident , but intentionally to make a point . Your belief thta homosexuality is something that should be common knowledge at Kindergarten ? Before , with or without parental approval ? As though sexual;ity orienation is nothing more then someone who is lefthanded ?
Reading a book to 4th graders dealing with homosexual orienations that include hugging , kissing and such , is this orienation or behaviors.
If I was to teach students about praying , kneeling before the cross , would that be promoting religion or just stopping the advancement of religion if you told the teacher they could not read the materials . So stopping the teaching about praying is not bigotry , a behavior , but teaching about same sex kissing and hugging is bigotry . See the difference in logic , and perhaps your arguements are as hurtful to someone as the arguements I use are ?
How about the orienation to have many partners at once . ? Or is that not identified yet as an orienation . ?
Thank you for your comments anyway , quite interesting , no harm intended , much harm given I see. I suggest you have no idea either what it is to send a child out into a world where right and wrong is as relevant as the next person you talk to . When you know how that feels , when you know that parents can be wrong , and even a RIGHT TO BE WRONG , but have a built in instinct to protect their kids from everything from those who think a little pot won't hurt , telling a ly here is Ok , ah don't tell your parents , use this and sex is safe , and then that child has to figure out on their own that adults who tell them things, or their friends , or homosexual activists , or even neigbors , who to believe , who to brush off , well , your just one more crowd with an agenda , I don't care if its the Religious Right, Planned Parenthood , or the Gay Alliance , let my kids and Grand Kids enjoy their innocence , and the parents can decide when its time to learn of your "Rights "
Just as I will never tell your kids about MY rights .
It has to be tied to marriage because just two boys kissing isn't enough to scare people.
But if you say that your marriage is threatened and your son is going to bring home a boyfriend if this passes, then you can get more support for your bigoted position.
Remember, that the christian church is founded on the idea that the church does your thinking for you and to just do what you are told. So when the church decides to be homophobic (especially the gay clergy that despise themselves for being gay), their followers just sound like sheep (baaa, baaa, baaa).
Remember the only argument against homosexuality is based on a religious belief. Imposing that belief on others is denying others their freedom of (and from) religion.
"But if you say that your marriage is threatened and your son is going to bring home a boyfriend if this passes, then you can get more support for your bigoted position."
Lets see , you are on a web calling someone you don't know a bigot . As though homosexuality is catching or a virus ? Lets see , that is how you view the people you are talking with here ?
"Remember, that the christian church is founded on the idea that the church does your thinking for you and to just do what you are told. So when the church decides to be homophobic (especially the gay clergy that despise themselves for being gay), their followers just sound like sheep (baaa, baaa, baaa)."
I hope the other folks who are speaking here see this language , and would like to see their opinion on it , I mean is this rational , is this what life will be like for those with aTraditional Value system of our parents , or a religious one ?
To be looked upon like this ..
Once sex out of marriage is protected by laws , : excuse this but its why we never have the same conversation , your issue is being treated badly because your different from the majority , my issue is standards and what makes healthy families , even tow same sex couples living together without cheating on each other will have a better life , better merntal outlook and perform better in the world .. To me its common sense .
"Remember the only argument against homosexuality is based on a religious belief. Imposing that belief on others is denying others their freedom of (and from) religion."
The only arguemnt against divorce is harmful is religion ? Thats makes about as much sense as your statement .
12:22 PM
Anonymous said...
If it is ok to fire me from my job because I am gay, then why can't I fire you from your job because you are a christian if christianity is against my personal beliefs?
Well that is a good point . Also could be said for fat , ugly , and a host of other characteristics .
A person stated before that homosexuals have better median incomes , then another person wrote that the info there was flawed because the dats was taken .
The data that is accepted in the
social sciences mainstream is that the median income is higher .
But what is seen , is discrimination is being said to stopped with indoctrination . In NYC there was a health curricullum years ago that taught about "fisting" When practices are introduced in health classes as healthy behaviors when they are detrimental to the way the body was designed or "evolved" then I would say indoctrination is being used wrongly in the name of discrimination .
"Indoctrination"? That's just a word to try and scare people. Oh, no, my precious son or daughter might get gay-cooties if they hear that some adults live in same-sex relationships.
Oh, no, the sky is falling. Mankind is doomed. The dog will be mating the cat anyday now.
Get over it. You can't get gay-cooties and become gay. And if you are gay, you can't become straight (even if you decide to try and live like a heterosexual).
Miike, your rambling message is hard to reply to - of course people should be able to dress according to their gender identity, of course its ok for people to show affection to each other in public, of course children should be taught about the real world and that real world has both gay and straight people in it. It boggles my mind that you think that children should be systematically lied to as you seem to be doing.
As to teaching religious practices that's because of the First Amendment, it gives a special protection to religion but with that protection also comes restrictions in how it can be expressed by the secular government insititutions. Special rights always carry special responsibilities.
As to the silly polygamy troll you should be embarrassed to have expressed it. There is no known instance of a person who can only be attracted to multiple partners. That isn't a sexual orientation that's just being greedy. :)
And what's so hard telling children the truth that some people fall in love with people of the same gender? That's just a statement of fact, one they will learn whether you tell it to them or not.
"social sciences mainstream is that the median income is higher"
Not true - go to the Urban Insititute website and find out the true, stop parroting what those with an agenda feed you.
"In NYC there was a health curricullum years ago that taught about "fisting" When practices are introduced in health classes as healthy behaviors when they are detrimental to the way the body was designed or "evolved" then I would say indoctrination is being used wrongly in the name of discrimination "
What a fun game of 'Telegraph'! What you are vaguely alluding to was a Massachusetts voluntary attended seminar for junior high school and high school students. A written question from the audience asked about fisting (now widely considered to be a shill by the agenda driven religious right since they were there to record the response) and the moderator answered it. Not that it was something 'healthy' but just that it does exist. (and of course heterosexuals 'fist' too).
Don't you people ever question the lies you are systematically told and you blithely repeat? Do you really think repeating lies is going to get you into heaven?
What a fun game of 'Telegraph'! What you are vaguely alluding to was a Massachusetts voluntary attended seminar for junior high school and high school students. A written question from the audience asked about fisting (now widely considered to be a shill by the agenda driven religious right since they were there to record the response) and the moderator answered it. Not that it was something 'healthy' but just that it does exist. (and of course heterosexuals 'fist' too).
Wow, don't you people . Great comeback . This was a NYC function I refered to , advertised in public schools , of course when your dealing with the homosexual lifestyle and the sex education is honest you will get "fisting" Now because you say hetrosexuals do it , that means it has merit .
How pathetic youer own mind works , can you not see that ? Its unhealthy , no matter who does it . That is what should be taught about it , not how to make the practice safer .. Get a grip ..
Vishanti said...
"social sciences mainstream is that the median income is higher"
Not true - go to the Urban Insititute website and find out the true, stop parroting what those with an agenda feed you.
Do you mean San Francisco Urban Institute ?
When I googled Urban Institue I got the SanFrancisco Urban Institute . Is that the same one ???looking for the information you said was there I found this ,
Introduction to Transgender Studies
HMSX 458 (See Below)
Appears to be a very liberal college ? This is your source of information ? Just never hear them quoted before in any mainstream media .
Let me know if this what you mean . I don't mind debating with you on my own email , if it gets too upsetting for either of us we can just go our different ways . That is fine . We will never change our opinions I believe , but somehow I believe you have some very rude opinions of people , and I guess I do also . Not of homosexuals , but of the political/fundamental humanistic secualr belief system you appear to have . That says you can undermine a childs belief system at a public school , and only religious beliefs are secondary to respect . Do I have that right ?
No wonder you are so concerned about a theocracy , that would mean your belief system which has nothing to do with religion would be totally non supported . I suggest that our onstitution , and the First Amendment was intended that either of our belief systems should be undermined at the tax payer's expense . That is how I always understood it .
Sorry about rambling , I will try not to do that .
Mick
Mick
Anonymous said...
"Indoctrination"? That's just a word to try and scare people. Oh, no, my precious son or daughter might get gay-cooties if they hear that some adults live in same-sex relationships.
No its called standards .. Makes no difference if your homosexual , multi sexual , bi sexual , or undersexual . standards , The state of Washington RCW concerning HIV Education states the best method is waiting till Marriage .
You want to break the law , deal with the same legislature that just passed the discrimination bill . When you don't have standards , you can make new laws every year , even if they contradict each other
"Don't you people ever question the lies you are systematically told and you blithely repeat? Do you really think repeating lies is going to get you into heaven? "
Figured this was amusing since "your people" think your data is questionable .
=======================
EDUCATION & OCCUPATION
=======================
24.7% of same-sex couples have a college degree. 23.2% are high school
graduates.
15.29% of members of same-sex couples are unemployed or in school.
Average household income: $76,460 for same-sex couples who live with
nobody else.
Average household income for total adult population: $41,994
Top 5 jobs (by percentage) held by members of same sex couples:
First-Line Supervisors/Managers of Retail Sales Workers
Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers
Retail Salespersons
Secretaries and Administrative Assistants
Elementary and Middle School Teachers
15% of members of same sex couples report military service, either
currently or in the past.
====================
THE CENSUS DATA
====================
Everything I’ve given you above is available, either as raw data from
the US census Bureau or filtered from GayDemographics.org.
GAY DEMOGRAPHICS
http://www.gaydemographics.org/index.htm
US CENSUS DATA*
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTGeoSearchByListServlet?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&state=dt
*
============
Mick, the urban institute is situated in Washington DC and their website is urban.org. And talking about couples is significantly different than talking about a population in general. Even then while couples without children have similar incomes and states, there are significant differences for those with children
"The characteristics and trends among New Jersey couples with children tell a much different story. Gay and lesbian couples with children have significantly lower median household incomes than heterosexual couples with children ($59,200 vs. $75,380) (table 3). It is worth noting that heterosexual couples with children have higher median household incomes than their childless counterparts ($75,380 vs. $71,500), while same-sex couples with children have median household incomes that are well below their childless counterparts ($59,200 vs. $73,400)."
http://www.urban.org/publications/411031.html
And since most same gender couples live in urban centers they need to be compared with people in the same location.
This http://www.noglstp.org/economic.html paper explains the ways that surveys have previously been wrong.
"That says you can undermine a childs belief system at a public school , and only religious beliefs are secondary to respect . Do I have that right ?"
I don't even understand what you are asking. If you are saying that public schools must either not cover subjects or cover them inaccurately to satisfy religious agendas, hopefully we can agree they shouldn't do that.
Exactly what is the problem with being honest about the facts that:
- that some people love people of the same gender
- some children have same gender parents
Are you saying facts like these somehow conflict with your religion?
"This was a NYC function I refered to , advertised in public schools , of course when your dealing with the homosexual lifestyle and the sex education is honest you will get "fisting" Now because you say hetrosexuals do it , that means it has merit .
How pathetic youer own mind works , can you not see that ? Its unhealthy , no matter who does it . That is what should be taught about it , not how to make the practice safer .. Get a grip .."
I do apologize, there was a Peer to Peer HIV Education Forum sponsored by the NYC schools. And one HIV organization did provide their series of pamphlets on how to lower HIV transmission risk for every legal sexual practice people might be doing. And yes, if your goal is to prevent HIV transmission, you do teach people how to decrease its transmission regardless of what they are doing. People do unhealthy things all the time, from smoking to riding motorcycles on the freeway. But regardless caring people always give even those that are doing risky things ways they can make those risky things less risky.
No advocacy of any sexual practice was done - merely information of 'if you are doing this, this is how you would protect yourself from HIV transmission'. And it was just a flyer at a voluntarily attended forum, not curriculum.
Again, distortions of what really happened to fit your agenda.
Yes, we don't believe the lies that we are systemically told, like the earth was created 6000 years ago and man walked around with dinosaurs.
"Exactly what is the problem with being honest about the facts that:
- that some people love people of the same gender
- some children have same gender parents
Are you saying facts like these somehow conflict with your religion?
Not my religion , my responsibilty as a parent to determine when this information should be available and how . The first experience my son received on homosexuality from an adult besides myself was from a speaker who came to his public school , spoke about sex toys that you could get when he played Queer Bingo . My child's first impresion of homosexuality by an adult was Queer Bingo and sex toys , and the hand out he received . I would refer he learn that homosexuals were no different then I , except for either a natural inclination or something causing or both to make them want to choose same sex partners . not some filthy pervert explaining about sex toys on a night out with the boys . The school administrator agreed with me , I wonder , anyway he said he would talk to him because he invited the speaker back the next day . This is what I call special rights , if it was a speaker on Black History , a Native American from a reservation , or a person from the clergy , whoops that would not be allowed .The speaker would not have been invited back . This is what I am talking about , right and wrong , 3000 years of Western Civilization ,listen to some of the hate speech on this blog , when homosexuality comes in , why does hatred for certain people always come in with it ,
Do you realize the people reading this are in the most cases people of Faith , like you they have a pre determined view point on this matter from their culture, and I would say you have been the most intellectual homosexual advocate , yet your impressions and view points of traditional values and people who hold then is basically scum . So when my friends help out strangers , help out each other , and by the way statistics say Religious people do give to charities the most , and just like your friends laugh , cry , love and loose special friends and family to sickness, we wonder about all your tolerance because we have a Faith System that offers hope and love , forgiveness and a safe way to live . Has been pretty much around a few thousand years , gone through some bad times , and good times , but always has provided people with Hope . What are you offering but hatred unless I accept your opinion . ? I have no problem if I worked along side of you , or for you , I have no idea of the things you refer to as discriminatory except you hate me . I do not see this discrimination , I see your opinion highlighted in the mainstream media , mine attacked . In the pop culture religion is always the looney , the hypocrite, in academia Christianity is seen as Intolerant , not allowed in government discussions unless it is being pointed out as a negative , I see this all the time . In a disuccion with you, and being honest , perhaps not a professional debater , or command of English , but I am being honest with you , I started out on this blog saying it does not matter if this law remains or is passed .What is happening in our culture will contine to happen , and regardless anyone who who grew up in another time , remebers when playgrounds and kids were safer . Regardless why , and its obvious to me you would not care less about or have respect for people who take parenting as a responsibilty , you only are concerned about rights .
Truth
As (ex-gay speaker and author) Joe Dallas has said, you could give homosexual activists everything they want, and they still wouldn't be satisfied until the Church is silenced on this issue, because they cannot handle the fact that their behavior is called sin. The tragedy of this all is, though, if they are successful, the person out there who considers himself or herself homosexual — who needs to hear the Gospel, who can be healed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ — will never have an opportunity to hear it or to respond to it.
Q&A: The Homosexual Agenda
By Pete Winn, CitizenLink associate editor
With the recent Supreme Court decision in the case of Lawrence v. Texas overturning state laws that ban sodomy laws, and an expected court ruling in Massachusetts that could give homosexuals the "right" to marry, the homosexual activist juggernaut is careening across America. The gay activist movement seems to be making headlines — and inroads — into American society in a record-breaking way, remaking the American legal landscape in the process. From "Will and Grace" to the Log Cabin Republicans, there seems to be few quarters of American society that have escaped the gay onslaught.
Alan Sears, president of the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) and Craig Osten, a vice president ADF, have written a scathing expose — titled "The Homosexual Agenda" — of the goals behind the gay activist movement.
CitizenLink Associate Editor Pete Winn talked with Osten about the new book and — more importantly — the gay agenda.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. Craig, with the recent Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas, and an expected decision from the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts that could create gay "marriage" on American shores, the whole idea of same-sex marriage has come front-and-center in American life. But isn't same-sex "marriage" just one part of the homosexual agenda?
A. Yes it is. The agenda of homosexual activists is basically to change America from what they perceive as looking down on homosexual behavior, to the affirmation of and societal acceptance of homosexual behavior.
It is an agenda that they basically set in the late 1980s, in a book called "After the Ball," where they laid out a six-point plan for how they could transform the beliefs of ordinary Americans with regard to homosexual behavior — in a decade-long time frame.
Q. Now, wait a minute. We hear all the time from gay activists that "there is no such thing" as a gay agenda. They snicker at the very idea.
A. But there is an agenda. They admit it privately, but they will not say that publicly. In their private publications, homosexual activists make it very clear that there is an agenda. The six-point agenda that they laid out in 1989 was explicit:
1. "Talk about gays and gayness as loudly and as often as possible." That was aimed at making people so tired of the issue they would want to give them anything they want to make them shut up.
2. "Portray gays as victims, not as aggressive challengers." That's why they exploited things like the tragic murder of Matthew Shepard. It was a tragic murder, yet they have used that and spun that to demonize people like Dr. James Dobson and other Christian leaders who have taken a biblical stand on homosexual behavior — people who have love and compassion for those trapped in that behavior.
3. "Give homosexual protectors a just cause." That was designed to tap into and exploit the almost innate sense of fairness that Americans have; to the sympathy that we have — especially liberals have — for those who seem to be disenfranchised.
4. "Make gays look good." That's what they've done through media campaigns, through television programs, like "Will and Grace" and others, where homosexuals are portrayed as the most normal, stable people in America.
5. "Make the victimizers look bad." They portray people of faith — people who have legitimate and biblical reasons to oppose homosexual behavior — as homophobes and bigots. They also try to "muddy the moral waters" by getting liberal churches, many of which have thrown out a great deal of the Bible, to say that homosexual behavior is just fine from a theological perspective.
6. "Get funds from corporate America." In fact, they have. They have gotten corporate America to sign on to their agenda, and it is very interesting how they have done that. It's based on fudging the truth — and outright lies.
By the way, the authors of "After the Ball" admit that the use of lies is perfectly fine in their struggle. Their main thing is to get people to believe them. That is all that is important.
What's interesting is that gay activists go to corporations and say, "We are an aggrieved class; we are discriminated against." Then, on the other hand, they go to corporate America and say, "Look how much money we have. We make double what a traditional family makes. We are a market that you want to advertise to and cater to."
Corporate America signs on — whether for domestic partner benefits, or whatever — because they don't want to alienate that market.
Q. You mentioned lies. Isn't one of the lies that homosexuals really want marriage?
A. That's one of the biggest lies. Actually, what they have said at conferences — including one international conference in London in 1999 — is that they really don't want marriage, they want the destruction of marriage. Basically, once they get marriage, they want to redefine it — they call the concept "monogamy without fidelity." In other words, marriage would mean that you could be with a person but say, "I can go ahead and have sex with anybody else I want, but my spouse and I live together."
One homosexual activist said, "We can now dethrone the (traditional) family based on blood relationships, in favor of the families that we choose."
Another activist said: "We need to fight for same-sex marriage and its benefits. Once granted, (we need to) redefine the institution of marriage completely (and) debunk a myth and radically alter an archaic institution. The most subversive action that gay men and lesbians can undertake, is to transform the notion of family entirely."
They don't just want marriage. They want to destroy marriage — and the family — as we know it.
Q. Do you think most people understand that there is a gay agenda, that it isn't benign and that homosexual activists are actively advancing it?
A. Unfortunately, I think very few people are aware of it. That's one of the reasons why we wrote this book. Gay activists have made such tremendous gains because people have not wanted to believe there is an agenda, or if they believed there is an agenda, they didn't know how to respond to it. We wrote the book so that the person sitting in the pew could understand the agenda and how it might affect their family, their children, and their grandchildren.
With the recent decision in Lawrence v. Texas, I think some people are really becoming aware of that, and saying: "Maybe there is an agenda here."
Q. It would seem that one of the areas most receptive to the gay agenda is public education? Do you agree?
A. Yes, very much so. Homosexual activists know — and have publicly stated — that to change a culture, they have to get to the children. They've made statements, for example, (that they want) to get children to reject the beliefs of their parents. For example, homosexual activists at a Gay, Lesbian and Straight Educational Network (GLSEN) conference said: "The fear of the 'religious right' is that the schools will be the governments of tomorrow. And you know, they are right. If we do our jobs right, we are going to raise a generation of kids who don't believe the claims of the 'religious right' (with regard to homosexual behavior)."
Now, as (Christian pollster) George Barna has documented, kids are most receptive to the Gospel when they are in their childhood years. And homosexual activists know that. That is why they are trying so hard — with the help of the ACLU — to keep the Gospel out of the schools, and get homosexual indoctrination in. And in places like Massachusetts and California — where the gay lobby is the strongest — it starts as early as pre-school. They tell seven- or eight-year-old boys — "If you only like boys, there's a chance you may be homosexual." Or — "If you only like girls, maybe you are lesbian." Well, at that age, all members of the opposite sex "have cooties."
You're planting a seed that can totally mess up the normal development process later, when at 12 or 14, kids enter the age of sexual confusion and discovering the opposite sex.
Q. How do we respond to the homosexual agenda? It would seem they are in the "catbird seat" and running the show now, aren't they?
A. They are awfully close. To use an analogy, they're on the 10-yard line and are about to score the final touchdown to win the game. They have been moving the ball back and forward down the field with little or no opposition . . . .
Homosexual activists have, for lack of a better word, an "evangelical" zeal for their cause to reshape America, to affirm homosexual behavior, and to reject America's religious heritage and traditional values. The only way we as Christians can reverse it is to have the same evangelical zeal — to stand up for what we believe; to be involved and educated about this issue. We got here because our head has been in the sand for a long time.
There will be a cost. We have to remember that Jesus said the Gospel would be offensive to some. This is a time, though, if we are going to stop the homosexual juggernaut that Christians need to stand up for the truth with love and compassion.
Q. It remains to be seen if the Church is going to stand up, doesn't it?
A. We are at the tipping point. Either the Church is going to stand up and help stop the gay agenda in its tracks, or the homosexual activists will get everything that they want — including the silencing of the Church.
As (ex-gay speaker and author) Joe Dallas has said, you could give homosexual activists everything they want, and they still wouldn't be satisfied until the Church is silenced on this issue, because they cannot handle the fact that their behavior is called sin. The tragedy of this all is, though, if they are successful, the person out there who considers himself or herself homosexual — who needs to hear the Gospel, who can be healed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ — will never have an opportunity to hear it or to respond to it.
Q. Isn't one of the key features of the gay agenda to silence opponents?
A. Yes. Homosexual activists have always said that what they want is tolerance of homosexuality. Well, the pretense of "tolerance" is over. What they really want is to make sure that there is no verbal dissent.
They don't want anyone to be able to say that homosexuality — like adultery, or lying, or whatever — is a sin. As long as that word is out there, it makes them "stigmatized" — or so they believe.
As we're seeing in Canada, we now have situations where Christians who share biblical verses on homosexual behavior are now facing criminal penalties. In Sweden, you can receive up to two years in prison (for saying) anything negative against homosexual behavior. That's where we'll be headed in America if the gay agenda advances.
Christians will be forced to violate their conscience. There has been a bill in the California Legislature that would affect Christian businesses, for example, and fine them up to $250,000 if they don't hire transgendered persons. So, we're fast approaching a situation where, as a Christian man, you cannot make a moral decision without facing the wrath of the state.
Q. So, the mere suggestion, the mere mention of homosexuality is getting people into trouble?
A. Yes. In Saskatchewan, a man put up some billboards and printed some flyers that basically had the Bible verses on homosexual behavior. Nothing else was on them.
He was brought before the human rights commission, was fined a substantial amount of money and faces further criminal penalties.
Already, Focus on the Family has to change its broadcasts for Canada when those programs deal with the issue of homosexuality, or it faces heavy fines from the CRTC — the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission.
It's very frightening that in the space of ten years, we've seen a 180-degree turn in society — where Christians have been stigmatized, intimidated and silenced for publicly opposing homosexuality.
Q. "Standing up," then, may mean the possible loss of a job, finances, physical safety, jail — or worse. That could be a heavy cost.
A. There will be a tremendous cost. But when people have stood up, God has shown Himself faithful. In Minnesota, three prison guards who were forced to attend diversity training or lose their jobs, (attended the training) but they sat in the back of the room and read their Bibles. Other people in the room were reading things and not really paying attention, but these guys were singled out, after the training, by their supervisor for "creating a hostile work environment" for people who engage in homosexual behavior. They were denied promotions, had their jobs threatened, and more.
But when they came to the Alliance Defense Fund, we went to court and defended them, the court ruled in favor of the prison guards, and, in addition, made them a substantial financial award.
We believe that God will ultimately honor anyone who stands up for His Truth. This is the time to do so.
"The Homosexual Agenda," published by Broadman & Holman, is available in Christian bookstores nationwide. To find out more about the book, see the Alliance Defense Fund Web site.
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That's pretty amusing. To bad it isn't objective or accurate.
Teaching kids about sexuality in school has always been (and will always be) a tough one. I would prefer that kids be taught more about where to get information about sexuality when/if they need it. Parents though are responsible for teaching morality.
On the other hand, telling a kid that some boys like boys instead of girls isn't going to mess them up or make them gay. Teaching gay boys that boys like girls doesn't make gay boys straight either.
"Kins are most receptive to the gospel" is scary. So if you can make them believe before they have critical judgement skills, that is better for making them believers?
I think you need to talk with/meet some gay families. You'll find out that the reason they want to be married is exactly the same as you and your spouse.
Remember, your belief that homosexuality is a sin is based only on your interpretation of a few passages (out of over a million) from the bible. Not everyone shares your interpretations or your religious beliefs. You pick which verses you are going to live by and which ones you are going to ignore.
Lastly, their are extremists on either side of the issue that are nuts. It's everyone's responsibility to try and find a middle ground.
Well, since we keep playing around with agendas, here is mine:
1. Treat everyone with respect even if you don't agree with them as long as they aren't harming others or themselves.
2. Parents are responsible for teaching kids what is right or wrong. For instance, parents showing interests in their kids activies tends to lead to toward greater self esteem and thus less drug use by kids.
3. Schools need to be able to share information or teach, but parents need to supplement it. So a school in Mass. should be able to teach that same sex marriages are legal in their state, but parents should teach why people believe on both sides of the issue and explain why they have their own beliefs. Parents or their designates, like their church, (not schools) should be teaching about the ramifications of sex (straight or other) and why it's better to wait until a committed relationship. Schools will never be able to replace parents for completely teaching values nor should they be responsible for that.
4. Age appropriate must be age appropriate. Teaching kids 7yrs old about sexuality doesn't seem right to me, whether it's heterosexuality or not.
5. There are going to be teenagers and adults who are gay. There have been and always will be. Unfortunately, when they hear that homosexuality is a sin and that they are morally wrong, etc, it hurts their self-esteem and too often leads to suicide. I think that is far worse for a family and society than accepting that someone is gay. If you have to accept the sin of homosexuality to avoid the sin of suicide, that seems like a pretty easy decision to me.
6. Two same-sex people who want to get married so that they have the same rights and responsibilities as other married couples isn't going to harm an opposite-sex marriage. Society isn't going to end and people aren't going to stop forming loving, commited relationships.
7. Getting rid of churches would be a really bad thing. Churches have and do provide incredible services to unbelievable numbers of people. The only time conflict seems to occur is when a church or group of churches takes it upon themselves to start trying to enforce their opinions on unwilling others. When that happens, it just ends up weakening the institution of the church as a whole.
There are way too many examples of religious rightousness being used to perpetrate bad judgement (espeically when viewed with hindsight). But if we don't learn from those mistakes, we will repeat them again. The more certain somebody was in their denouncing something as wrong, usually the worse they are viewed in hindsight.
8. There are people of many different religions in this country - muslim, jewish, christian, bhuddist, etc. To not recognize that they may have different beliefs and accept their beliefs as equally valid only weakens christian arguments why American society should or shouldn't be their way. Or, respect others religious beliefs, even if they are different than yours. If you denigrate their beliefs, then you are denigrating your own at the same time.
9. I promise to let you live your life according to your beliefs (like sunday is the sabbath and so you don't have to work) if you let me live my live according to mine. Rights and responsibilities that are given by the state should be the same for everyone.
10. The argument against homosexuality is a religious one only. The bible is the most incredible piece of our common heritage. It is the most widely translated and interpreted book we have. It is also the most widely mistranslated and interpreted. Translating from ancient hebrew, aramaic or greek into modern english is hard. To claim that it says this or that, black or white, etc. in your english edition can be very risky. Not even every english edition can agree on the translation. That doesn't mean your belief is wrong, it just means you should understand why others may have a different belief and theirs is probably just as valid.
11. Homosexuality isn't a choice. I can't think of one reason to want to be gay. Being picked on, threatened, worrying about getting beat up, doesn't make a lot of sense. Even people who have been through the "ex-gay" therapies admit that they are attracted to the same sex, they just try to repress those attractions. If that works for them, that is great. If that isn't for someone else, that is great too.
And please don't worry that someone is going to be converted, seduced, etc. into being gay. If you are straight and love your spouse, is there anything someone could say for you to divorce them to marry someone of the same sex? No, way. Of course not. If you are gay, there is nothing you can say that is going to make them give up their loved one and marry someone of the opposite sex.
12. Treat everyone else as you want to be treated. If you think it is ok if your neighbors in an opposite marriage kiss each other in front of your child, ask yourself why would you treat it differently if your neighbors were of the same-sex? If love and marriage is part of the covenant with God, then isn't reinforcing that idea of marriage a good thing?
13. Stop worrying about this kind of sex or that kind of sex. All kinds of sex are messy and icky and no matter what kind you are having with someone, I don't want to know about it. And there isn't anything that same-sex partners are doing that opposite-sex partners are doing too. (Yes, they make and sell everything for whatever you can imagine). As long as the two people are consenting adults in a loving relationship, isn't that all that matters?
14. Believe in God. Trust him. Love him. He'll come through for you. Just don't speak for him and I won't speak for him either.
REMEBER YOUR VERSION OF MORALITY IS ONLY YOUR INTERPERATION OF IT . I THINK YOU NEED TO TALK TO SOME GAY FAMILIES , i AM PART OF A GAY FAMILY AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT , AND IF YOU ASK ME , YOUR THE BIGOT . eXTREMISTS SO FAR HAVE BEEN SOME RUDE AND EXTREME POINTS OF VIEW SUBMITTED , CALLING PEOPLE LIARS , AND ACTING AS THOUGH YOU HAVE SOME CORNER ON DIVERSITY , WITH ALL OF YOUR ASSUMPTIONS . REMEBER THE FACT THAT CRITICAL TEACHING SKILLS HAVE TOLD YOU USING YOUR BODY PARTS DESIGNED FOR OUTPUT BY YOUR BILLION YEAR EVOLTION THEORY FOR INPUT RECREATION IS SOMEHOW WHAT EVERY SCHOOL AGE CHILD NEEDS TO LEARN ABOUT . gOOD gRIEF
I would not say the man was a bigot , remember this is all he knows . Its a small world he has been wrapped into . Salvation to him is Mother Government .
Notice when confronted with a speaker speaking to Queer Bingo and Sex Toys at a school , he says talk to gay families ? As if gay families would want their kids seeing homosexuals viewed as people who play with sex toys and playing queer bingo . Instead of admitting to lack of common sense , respect for parental oversight , respect for anyone actually ,the best thing to do is attack the Bible , or someones view of it . This is classic stuff for the tolerant crowd .
There is truth to what this homosexual advocate states about reaching children at a young age . In my School District the Health Department promoted a peer sexual teaching system . Selected students were taught the definition of healthy sexual relationship , for vaginal , oral , and anal sex . Nothing in the definition contained marriage , and parents were not allowed to preview the materials . I got involved and asked what could be healthy about anal sex ? The Surgeon General gave it a high risk , your are dealing with bacteria and disease.
Anyway everyone knows the world is not flat , but anal sex is healthy ? Tell me again sexual orientation is not about behavior .
Frederick
Mr. Sheldon I believe you may be interested in this .. This is a growing trend in our culture .
http://www.inqueery.com/index.html
Steps for Introducing the Ex-Gay Perspective in Schools
Thank you for that post , I am well aware of this organiztion . Been to a Saturday afternoon retreat .. Some of the members may actually be for sexual orienation beng a protected status . I
The difference between the gay and lesbian aliance and honesty and integrity , well they vote democrat . Thats all the democrats want to know . I have been on a Human Rights Council , when the doors are shut , the most disgusting examples of homosexuals inner worth being damned are by liberals who think they are talking to what they think a conservative Christian thinks like . To think homosexuals like Murray and such have sold their worth to a politicl party . ?
Research from the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) found that 84% of LGBT students report being verbally harassed because of their sexual orientation.2 However, the National Center for Education Statistics found that only 1% to 2% of students aged 12-18 had been called a derogatory word related to their religion, disability, or sexual orientation.3 More research needs to be done on this issue, but no matter what the numbers say, we know that the use of anti-gay slurs at school is a problem.
The following post should have been at the forefront at the beginning of the discussion . I disagree with some of your points you go on to list , but not your spirit or understanding of the issues at hand . I don't believe this issue is a religious one only, though it has religious elements to it .Setting A as the highest standard for academics helps some to achieve a B by shooting for an A. Morality is different , but I believe you might understand the anology .
Anonymous said...
Well, since we keep playing around with agendas, here is mine:
1. Treat everyone with respect even if you don't agree with them as long as they aren't harming others or themselves.
Frederick, sexual orientation is not about behavior.
Frederick, sexual orientation is not about behavior.
Sex is a behavior, kissing is a behavior, watching tv is a behavior. But who you are attracted to isn't a behavior. You didn't "choose" your spouse, you were attracted and fell in love.
Thanks, Mick.
Yep, I understand and agree with the analogy. And yep, you don't have agree, but it can't hurt to understand them.
That's why I read what's posted - it's to better understand people who don't agree with me.
Was away for a day Mick,
Not my religion , my responsibilty as a parent to determine when this information should be available and how . The first experience my son received on homosexuality from an adult besides myself was from a speaker who came to his public school , spoke about sex toys that you could get when he played Queer Bingo . My child's first impresion of homosexuality by an adult was Queer Bingo and sex toys , and the hand out he received.
Ok that makes little sense - every kid older than 8 knows about gay people unless they have been artificially insulated - so it doesn't make much sense to me that you are saying this kind of talk was delivered to the age group that would be getting their 'first impression' of gay people (not homosexuality). And again, we aren't talking about school curriculum but outside speakers that with what you are saying was probably part of some sort of diversity interaction AND what you said sounds like a question response.
So hopefully you can see where I feel you are avoiding the question - I agree that people present information poorly for all subjects - my question is would you have a problem with simple facts being acknowledged, not the bizarre exceptions?
" yet your impressions and view points of traditional values and people who hold then is basically scum"
Strawman. Many 'traditional values' are very well based - accepting others as themselves, loving they neighbor as god loves you, acknowledging the basic right of people to lead their own lives - these are traditional american values. But knee jerk bigotry, preaching intolerance of law-abiding citizens just trying to live their lives as happily as they can - of course those are traditions we can well do without as Americans. I think they problem is that you think that your view of 'traditional values' is some absolute - they aren't. My family traditions are live your life and let other people live theirs, that we all have an obligation to help that our fellow citizens have access to a fulfilling life of their own choosing, to accept people the way they are and not the way we might want them to be. And I was raised these are Christian virtues and pretty much common sense as far as I can see.
"What are you offering but hatred unless I accept your opinion"
Hate you? I don't care what your opinion is as long as we can agree that it YOUR opinion and that you have no right to force your religious opinion upon me. You want to hate republicans as servants of satan, have at it. You want to think that black people won't go to heaven, be my guest. Just don't try and say you have a right to treat others who don't hold your opinion as if your opinion was correct. Still let them live their lives as happily as they can regardless of what you think is best or right or whatever. Ironically we sort of get to the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' modality - I fully acknowledge your right to hold any opinion and express it on any subject, what I would 'hate' is if you were to actively discriminate and treat other citizens differently because of these opinions. You have a right to parctice whatever religion you want personally, but everyone else has a right to live their lives without interference because of your beliefs. You think its worng to be gay, then DON'T BE GAY!` But don't be so arrogant that you think you can decide if its right for someone else to be gay.
"I started out on this blog saying it does not matter if this law remains or is passed .What is happening in our culture will contine to happen , and regardless anyone who who grew up in another time , remebers when playgrounds and kids were safer . Regardless why , and its obvious to me you would not care less about or have respect for people who take parenting as a responsibilty , you only are concerned about rights ."
You want to be respected you'd have to be doing a good job at it and part of parenting is education - the idea that your child's first exposure to the idea of gay people was the situation you describe doesn't indicate that to me. Gay people are part of the culture, they are part of our history, they are a fact of life. How could this subject not have been broached years ago by a responsible parent? No, you don't have a right to expect the world to keep your kids in information isolation to suit your agenda. This is, like it or not, the information age - you must teach kids how to sort through the information they are exposed, the days of limiting their access to information is gone and will never return. You want respect? Then continue to teach your kids the truth, don't try and protect them from the truth, and mold them into critical thinkers not mindless parroters of other peoples words.
Notice when confronted with a speaker speaking to Queer Bingo and Sex Toys at a school , he says talk to gay families ?
And suggesting that talking to others is somehow confrontational? In what way?
As if gay families would want their kids seeing homosexuals viewed as people who play with sex toys and playing queer bingo .
Absolutely not! Again, we are missing the entire context and age grouping for that anecdotal story. As part of general education, - bad. As far as a diversity forum where the whole point is to show how different TOTALLY LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS are, it might have more usefulness as a data point.
Instead of admitting to lack of common sense , respect for parental oversight , respect for anyone actually ,the best thing to do is attack the Bible , or someones view of it . This is classic stuff for the tolerant crowd .
yes yes, any sign of disagreement is an 'attack' - playing the victim is always such a useful way to carry on a discussion <- sarcasm for the sarcasm impaired ;)
Everyone has a right to their opinion of religion = look at Tom Cruise for an extreme. What they don't have a right to do is force others to act as if their view was the right view. My interpretation of the bible shows it says nothing about same gender couples in love and in monogamous relationships, that it wouldn't make much sense if it did. You don't have to accept it as THE interpretation but as an American you are sort of obligated to accept it as MY interpretation and acknowledge my right to have it.
Vishanti said...
"Absolutely not! Again, we are missing the entire context and age grouping for that anecdotal story. As part of general education, - bad. As far as a diversity forum where the whole point is to show how different TOTALLY LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS are, it might have more usefulness as a data point. "
Good grief , This is a Public school . Remember math , science ,,getting a job , being prepared . I guess this is the future .... Excuse me if stand up for the natural modesty of kids , they have been heaped on greatly the past 30 years , they know more about sex , drugs and the problems of divorce and dysfunctional familes more then any other generation , so excuse me if I stick up for the fact that maybe they just rather talk about the stuff they like and not the perverted crap others think they may need to be exposed to .
Allowing someone like this speak is inappropriate in a government sponsored forum.
"Everyone has a right to their opinion of religion = look at Tom Cruise for an extreme. What they don't have a right to do is force others to act as if their view was the right view. My interpretation of the bible shows it says nothing about same gender couples in love and in monogamous relationships, that it wouldn't make much sense if it did. You don't have to accept it as THE interpretation but as an American you are sort of obligated to accept it as MY interpretation and acknowledge my right to have it. "
Your view of the Bible is shared by many people , and what that has to do with this conversation or your point is quite strange . The people who share your view by the way would most likely like the way most of the methods of teaching about homosexuality being presented as you do , if they want that in a public school I would have to say I disagree with that , in your church , your home , that is fine . Your facts are structured to re affirm your life , nothing wrong with that .
I ahve a problem in my belief system with mixing politics and religion , I believe it is counter productive , but I guess from your point that means I am forcing my beliefs on other people . Actually what I do is live in a way that I do not use government with my Faith , but that is a personel decision on my part and how I believe The Bible Teaches . But I am very nvolved civically , because I think that is something we should all do ,
What are you blathering about ? Who forced who ? I have no ability to have my "agenda" put into curriculum . Nor have I ever tried to ... I have constantly made attended school forums where materials are made available to see what is being taught . I do press for that to be done , and have lobbied for it .
1:54 PM
Anonymous said...
Thanks, Mick.
Yep, I understand and agree with the analogy. And yep, you don't have agree, but it can't hurt to understand them.
Yes , totally agree. The venom can make you forget , me anyway , to respect what the person is trying to say .
Take care ,, Mick
Gay people are part of the culture, they are part of our history, they are a fact of life. How could this subject not have been broached years ago by a responsible parent?
Are you for real ? You don;t think kids don;t know about the homosexuals , any kid with a radio , MTV , just about every network has a show with the homosexual and the religious bigot causing problems . Yeah my kids know about homosexuals , and taught very young not to talk to starangers and good touch and bad touch . People like you promote a belief system that they know better ..
No, you don't have a right to expect the world to keep your kids in information isolation to suit your agenda.
Whose agenda , lets see anal pleasure toys , and next period we will learn about global warming and its effects on New Orleans . and I am irresponsible .. Ever look in the mirror , ever read what you are actually saying ..
This is, like it or not, the information age - you must teach kids how to sort through the information they are exposed, the days of limiting their access to information is gone and will never return. You want respect?
No thanks , earn your respect ? You don't know what the word means ..Anyone who has a child , has my respect , regardless of their race , religion , orienation , culture , and unless they are causing harm to that hild , its perverted to ever undermine that parent , to undermine a parent is what very well can cause that kid to go somewhere elese , someone maybe like you , who could not give two flips about that child . Your dogma , your political views , your agenda as you say ,
"Then continue to teach your kids the truth, don't try and protect them from the truth, and mold them into critical thinkers not mindless parroters of other peoples words."
Sounds like something you read out of tha Lesbian And Gay Allianc .
Don't tell me , I have a Pat Roberston decoder ring , your past what I consider worthy of a conversation . Are you just bored and go to Christian Blogs , you think you have done anything but supply reasons why people would want your perverted view thrown out of every public institution . It is surrounded in stereotypes, lack of factual information , and no respect for everyone , which means anyone you do not agree with .
Are you from another planet or what ? Sex molesters are part of every community , should parents take their kids to meet one ? Babe Ruth , school,activities , Camping , yah and take your kid to Queer Bingo Night for some education . How about accross the Sound and watch the folks make it with animals . Next time you got some advice for my parenting , consider the fact showing people what you wrote here is a clasis example of why parents don 't p
Vishanti said...
"
As far as a diversity forum where the whole point is to show how different TOTALLY LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS are, it might have more usefulness as a data point.
So people in some states legally can have sex with animals .
How would you logically make a secular humanistic debate against this ? Or do you think its Ok ?
People do it , more people then most know about ..
Regular law abiding citizens ..
Just wondering how far anything goes with you ?
Frederick,
A healthy sexual relationship with no dintictions between oral, vaginal or anal sex .
This is almost laughable if it was not for evil being allowed to promulate our youth . A young man is told that having anal sex is on the same status as vaginal , with no regards to marriage ..
Anonymous said...
Yes, we don't believe the lies that we are systemically told, like the earth was created 6000 years ago and man walked around with dinosaurs.
And with the health information available and information that is actually given out, this puts kids , homosexual kids included at risk .
Perhaps even causing death . These people rathe have people actually risk death then to offer the TRUTH .
Hey Mick ,
Right on , I totally agree with you . No way would I want people thinking my gay sister was a perv like the speaker who spoke to those kids . School let him back too ... Talk about being blinded by the light .
Oh yeah its a behavior ...
Now some homosexual activists are ridiculing praying and Christ on the nationa Day of Prayer Blog .
What sense does this make to these people ?
Many people can and do change their sexual orientation. It is not an immutable characteristic
Rudeness , harrassment , lying , and other characterstics are behaviors,
Get it behavior ..
Fred
"Many people can and do change their sexual orientation. It is not an immutable characteristic"
Hmm, is that a professional belief or a personal one? It contradicts all the medical associations. How do you refute their position?
Considering the memory of Harvey Milk & George Moscone, it is terribly sad the R-65 folks are finding it necessary to do all of their signature gathering at gun shows. Puyallup this weekend.
Gosh, my note must have hit a nerve - prompted 3 notes in response. Should have checked back sooner...
In order:
Again, you have not provided the context of this discussion, was it local? You aren't talking about the Seattle 'gay bingo' night that raised money for charities are you? If so, it was gay's playing bingo with a drag queen calling the numbers. Yes there were occasional gag gifts, but most were haircuts, dinners, etc. Less exotic than evening broadcast tv.
Again, there are 'classes' as you note and then there are special diversity forums and such that are supposed to provoke discussion and thinking especially in a high school filled with young adults. In a classroom by a teacher, yeah inappropriate. As a guest speaker there to talk about diversity, less so.
A diversity forum that doesn't demonstrate diversty really sort of loses the point and we again still don't know the real context of this anecdotal story yet either. (odd that you could have missed clarifying that in 3 followup notes)
As to my mentioning religion as being 'strange', I would think it strange you think so in a blog dedicated to 'traditional Judeo-Christian values' and trying to force that agenda upon citizens as a whole. So that's what I'm 'blathering' about.
Yes I am for 'real' - you are the one that said:
"My child's first impression of homosexuality by an adult was..."
Which is why I wondered how this could be possible. You then admit that they do know about homosexuality. Your inconsistency is confusing...
Skipping you again trying to clumsily lump this guest speaker there for the still unidentified purpose with regular classroom education lets move on to the meat of the discussion. I said:
"Then continue to teach your kids the truth, don't try and protect them from the truth, and mold them into critical thinkers not mindless parroters of other peoples words."
And you reply:
"Sounds like something you read out of the Lesbian And Gay Alliance."
Freedom of thought and being open is 'homosexual' to you? Really? You think that children shouldn't be taught the truth, that they should be isolated from it, and that they should just repeat what others tell them without question? That would be the 'non-homosexual' mirror statement wouldn't it?
Then this appeal for what seems to be the 'gold standard' of child education: teaching them facts, letting them have access to all the facts, and letting them decide how they think they fit together, sets you off on a rant. About how dare I be talking at all, that this view of education is a 'perverted' view, and then ironically says its I who has no respect for anyone when pretty obviously that honor goes to you.
Is it any wonder I am skeptical about the context of this anecdotal story? Was this really just about a high school diversity forum and the gay speaker mentioned that he'd been at gay bingo (which really is JUST bingo), and they even gave out taudry gag prizes and it all encompassed maybe 10 seconds of the entire talk? I mean all high school students do know about dildos - they did in the 60's and even then they considered them humorous - are you really getting your panties all in a knot because one guest speaker mentioned them once in passing? Not the best of judgement on their part but hardly harmful to any high school student.
As to your tangent to 'sex molesters' and beastiality, how stereotypical is that? Out gay people are rarely sexual molesters and any quick search of the web will show you that the VAST majority of those fascinated with beastiality are interested in the heterosexual variations. So I guess its my turn to think it 'strange' of you to bring these topics up. Be like me just suddenly changing topics to the 2 top markers for in-home incest: #1) father with drug or alcohol problem, #2) family practices a fundamentalist religion with strict sexual mores and roles. None of them really have anything to do with this discussion do they?
As to why I'm here its because this ISN'T a Christian blog, it is a blog by a political organization trying to justify discrimination in the public sector based on sexual orientation. You really don't think those that discriminate should be free from interaction with those they are advocating discrimination against do you?
So how about calming down - your kid hearing about a charity function's, at worst, off color gag gift is worth a chuckle or a frown, or maybe even a finger wag, but not a rant and of course it has nothing to do with the the idea that discrimination in the public arena based on sexual orientation is something that should be actively campaigned for by any one calling themselves 'Judeo-Christian'.
Yeah right , children taught your truth .. Your facts , and your religious beliefs . The difference is if one person says something that promotes hatred or destroys the dignity of a homosexual , that is wrong . You will find most people in agreement , the problem is you seek to take a person's dignity and use to equate your morality , your truth , and your hatred to promote a culture that supports no morality , no truth , and more hatred then the one it is being replaced with . Thats my persepctive , a child's innocence is not ignorance , its something that should be treaured and protected . Truth is not just Brokeback Mountain , thats Hollywood , the truth is people suffer all the time in this world , and certain value systems protect them and their families from suffering . The fact you are on on this page spewing your hatred proves you have no concept or understanding of the good people who confess Christ as savior , and do their best to lead lives that help people , not hurt them . You my friend , drink cool aid .
"Yeah right , children taught your truth .. Your facts , and your religious beliefs"
What truth don't we share? That gay people exist? they have a right to exist? They have a right to lead their lives in-spite of others religious beliefs they do not share? Exactly where do we disagree on any of these 'truths'?
"your hatred to promote a culture that supports no morality , no truth , and more hatred then the one it is being replaced with"
Wow, lots of projection there - I think we do have a common truth on this subject but it is YOU who has an agenda, a particular answer you want to be taught. The hatred is very much on your side of the fence where they are working feverishly to justify discrimination. Yours is the hatred - I mean read your note. You are telling ME I have no concept or understanding of Christians when I know many of them who are kind and loving and wonderful people that do focus on helping people, not figuring out justifications for discriminating against them, and many people who aren't Christians who do the same. Lets face it, I have no reason to get such a feeling from you but my guess would be that your more a Christianist rather than a Christian. But then as long as I don't have to practice your religion or pretend that I do that's fine too - I'm tolerant of others - only ask the same in return.
Vishanti,
I do have a problem sterotyping people who have no core other then their own beliefs and perceptions . Where is you decide what is right and wrong . Hatred no , agenda , ? How can you say this . I believed our morality of sex out of the confines of marriage should be considered immoral . That is for everyone , you Vishanto are in favor of changing that morality , my agenda was to keep it the same , my only agenda is to respect that morality now . Hard to teach a course on say HIV when you say certain risks that you take are not only a personel choice . Hard to even have a conversation withsome who sees their view based in humanism compared to someone whose view is based in the Judeo Christian ethic. So even if I take your word that you are being sincere, which I do not , we would hae a hard enough time understanding why and what issues we are really concerned about . It is useless to really understand the issues reading the rhetoric concerning homosexuality receiving protected status .What is even more interesting , and I believe note worthy is that those law makers who shouted the most about discrimination , allowed child sexual molesters to be allowed lesser penalties under the law if they are related to the victims compared to those not known to the victims . The Jessica' s Law plus in the most important initiative out there in my opinion to fight legalized discrimination . It protects children no matter what their race , sex, or orientation is , and the liberal Pharisees have ignored it for their lack of values , compassion an their twisted sense of justice. To me that wha happens when we base our laws and decisions on the PC moment , logic, truth becomes debatable , and with this issue people feel hurt and injured . No , I wish no one to be hurt , and homosexuals also . Most of the homosexuals I know never felt they had a choice , it was always there in their inner drives as a man or women . You honestly think all people who are against sexual orienation status hate homosexuals , then you have no idea of what or why people are against it . I have tried to have an open conversation with you , you reject the basic fact the opposing side has sincere individuals . You consider your Faith or your morality as important , yet someone who has no hatred for their fellow Americans , or brothers and sisters in Christ happen to believe with a standard of Man and Women , and Traditional Beliefs , our culture is in trouble . Which it already is . It appears to me you are in denial , sex out of marriage and the loosening of values have caused a dread full effect on children being born out of wedlock . Children now in public schools have their beliefs undermined , you do not think that is important . Switch the subject to say crossing the street , if a eacher says its ok to cross that street for children who can be mature enough to handle the risk , after the parent has told that child not to , most kids will take it as they are old enough , .. I am not sure if you understand that anology , it was not about homosexuality , it is actually related to sexual morality . The more values become optional, the more kids in the future generation will believe they can cross the line . In fact , I think we have already crossed that line .The world we have today , do not blame
on Christians , and if all you can do is choose to bring up the hurt and injutice that has been done in the name of God you are missing the point , your just missing the whole story . If homosexuality has no effect but to keep people with sexual orienation from loosing jobs and such , you win the debate , and I would march in any parade promoting that issue . But from your hatred , and the hatred in which people ridiculed Christians and our Lord < you said you were a Christian> it is clear to me that the more your values and morality overcomes academia and our culture , the more discrimination takes place of people of Faith and especially their children . You can not even see the discrimination , and you have never spoke to the hatred coming from your side on thsi blog , from you or others . Discrimination is not something that hits only one class of people , one type of race , its always there because some people just do not like different people . The more religion is excluded from the common market place of ideas and civic or social functions , the more people will lack knowledge of it , and the hate mongers will use it for their own agendas. Just like homosexuality is used as fund raising tactic in certain religious groups , it is used by the Gay Alliances and such to gain support .
It is useless to really understand the issues read the rhetoric concerning homosexuality receiving protected status .What is even more interesting , and I believe note worthy is that those law makers who shouted the most about discrimination , allowed child sexual molesters to be allowed lesser penalties under the law if they are related to the victims compared to those not known to the victims . The Jessica' s Law plus in the most important initiative out there in my opinion to fight legalized discrimination . It protects children no matter what their race , sex, or orientation is , and the liberal Pharisees have ignored it for their lack of values , compassion an their twisted sense of justice.
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